Horological Meandering

Greetings from Canada.

I recently acquired a rare watch from Cuba; having little personal experience with Cuervo y Sobrinos watches, I was hoping to get the opinion of the esteemed and expert collectors on this forum.

I hope the discussion will also help other collectors avoid pitfalls.

Thank you in advance for your consideration and help.

Basically, I am wondering about the probability that the watch is:

(1) Mostly original configuration (esp. dial + case)

(2) Original Cuervo y Sobrinos dial with non-original movement and case

(3) Complete “Frankenstein” with fake dial and non-original parts (in other words, I should get a full refund)

The dial has three signatures: Longines, Cuervo y Sobrinos, and Hotel Plaza (apparently a famous pre-revolution casino, hence the “poker chip” design).

The watch has a diameter of 36 mm, but shares the dial design with a significantly larger watch (46 mm?) described here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YChnul8u34

^ REFERENCE (TIME+TIDE)

Originally, the watch was described to me as

“In the best condition and with the original case.”

Then, a few days later:

"The watch is in the same condition it was when they bought it and, in theory, no modifications have been made to it. The only thing missing is the original case; they say they can find it, but it will take some time."

A substantial deposit was paid for the watch with the intention of paying the full amount once its authenticity had been verified.

However, this verification process has been complicated by foreseeable and unforeseen reasons.

There are discrepancies in the information coming from Cuba: multiple factors that could be considered red flags were it not for the fact that, given the embargo situation, it is plausible that the watches are maintained through the creative reuse of watch parts.

The watchmaker said that the reference timepiece in the video has parts from a Russian pocket watch and claims that these adaptations were made after the revolution due to a shortage of parts for repairs; furthermore he says the “Hotel Plaza” models, of which there are few, are composed entirely of components from different mechanisms and eras. It is impossible for them to be 100% original if they have remained in Cuba and are still functioning.

The dial appears to be finely-printed with true engraving of the inner ring, although the outer ring is a different color from the large (silvered) example.

Longines' handwritten archives provided the following information:

The original serial number 4'741'XXX identifies an 18-karat gold rectangular wristwatch. It is equipped with a Longines manual-winding mechanical movement, caliber 8.28. It was invoiced on June 29, 1929, to Baume & Co., which was our agent for the United Kingdom at the time. The watch originally had a seconds indicator on a subdial at 6 o'clock.

Interestingly, the initial photo of the movement sent from Cuba seemed to show the movement coupled to a square dial.

The case is relatively flawless; the engraving on the case back is a little rougher than expected.

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*** ALL TEXT BELOW IS FROM THE CUBAN WATCHMAKER ***

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"1- Hands: The hands shown in the reference photo (from the Internet) are from Molnija pocket watches, not from the original Hotel Plaza model. Is the sample model correct, up to date, and 100% compatible with the original Longines movement?

2- Back cover: In the reference example, you can see that the back cover of the pocket watch has been erased and re-engraved. As a result, the three stars in the center are barely distinguishable and the shadow of Roskopf's original coat of arms is still visible. The sample case matches the historical design, with no alterations or erased markings.

3- Movement: The caliber is an original Longines L1.40, which also bears the inscription “B&Co” under the balance bridge, corresponding to Baume & Co., which manufactured calibers for Longines at the time. In other words, the movement retains a double historical signature: Longines on the upper plate and B&Co under the balance, reinforcing its authenticity.

Conclusion: A comparison was made between the “sample” and the example seen on the Internet to detect any discrepancies or alterations.

The most significant change in the sample is the replacement of the mesh and link, which are not original. As for the movement, the dial, and the mechanism in general, all components are period and of proper manufacture.

The watch found on the Internet has parts from a Russian pocket watch, and he claims that these adaptations were made after the revolution due to a shortage of parts for repairs. The technician assures us that the “Hotel Plaza” models, of which there are very few, are composed entirely of components from different mechanisms and periods. It is impossible for them to be 100% original if they have remained in Cuba and are still functioning.

In most examples of this series, the interior engraving is not always present, as many of the original cases came from suppliers outside Longines and were adapted on the island by Cuervo y Sobrinos.

In the Longines Hotel Plaza watches manufactured for Cuervo y Sobrinos, it was not common for the case backs to feature a standardized internal engraving such as the one in the sample you sent me. This type of stamping, with numerical references and codes, is more characteristic of Longines' later productions with centralized control in Switzerland.

You are correct in that, according to Longines' records, that specific movement was originally intended for England. However, at that time it was common for certain movements to be redistributed among official agents according to commercial needs.

Cuervo y Sobrinos, as the exclusive representative of Longines in Cuba, received mixed shipments of movements and components, not always initially manufactured “for Cuba,” but reassigned by Longines itself or by intermediaries such as Baume & Co. (the UK agent).

In fact, many Cuervo y Sobrinos watches from the 1930s and 1940s incorporated movements originally shipped to other European destinations but assembled or adapted in Havana, with customized dials and locally manufactured cases.

Therefore, although the archive extract indicates a shipment to England, it does not rule out the possibility that the movement ended up being part of a watch assembled or adapted by Cuervo y Sobrinos in Cuba, especially if the piece shows aesthetic and historical consistency with the line of watches they sold.

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1. Cuervo y Sobrinos: official importer and customizer

During the 1920s to 1950s, Cuervo y Sobrinos did not manufacture watches, but acted as the official representative in Cuba for Swiss brands such as Longines, Patek Philippe, Universal Genève, Movado, and Rolex.

These companies produced the movements (calibers) and, in some cases, the cases as well. Once in Havana, Cuervo y Sobrinos could customize the watches to suit its local clientele or special orders (such as those from the Hotel Plaza Habana).

This double signature—“Longines Cuervo y Sobrinos / Exclusive Importers”—indicated precisely a commercial collaboration: the watch was an authentic Longines, but with subsequent Cuban modifications.

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2. How watches were assembled and modified

In many cases, Longines sent the movements to its European agents, such as Baume & Co. in England, who then redistributed some of these calibers to other representatives, including Cuervo y Sobrinos.

Therefore, a movement originally “billed” to England in Longines' records could very well end up in Havana and be assembled there in a different case, with an exclusive dial.

Cuervo y Sobrinos:

• Re-sealed Longines movements in cases manufactured in Cuba or commissioned from third parties.

• Replaced the dial with its own designs, often featuring local logos or emblems (such as that of the Hotel Plaza).

• Repainted or engraved exclusive decorative and commercial elements.

This resulted in unique pieces, not documented in Swiss archives, but legitimate within the authorized import and sales circuit.

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3. Why Longines cannot validate all Cuervo watches

When Longines reviews its records, all it finds is the initial shipment of the movement:

“Movement caliber 12.68Z, shipped in 1939 to Baume & Co., England.”

However, Longines does not record the modifications, resoldering, or local dials that Cuervo y Sobrinos subsequently made.

Therefore, if someone writes to them today and shows them a watch that has already been customized in Havana, Longines can only say:

“This movement does not match the model described in our records.”

And that's normal, because their records reflect the factory, not the local market or distributors' workshops.

The watch was working properly.

If you want to find a flaw, you can find it in the intensity of the light, whether it's square or round, etc.

None of that is valid! What is valid is that the movement is 100% Longines, corresponding to the period. The dial is a Cuervo y Sobrinos Hotel Plaza. You have it in your hands; a collector can identify an antique watch just by holding it [...]

Cuervo y Sobrinos is the best-known watch brand in Cuba among watch enthusiasts. I don't need to copy and paste; that information is common knowledge among all collectors. If you do a little research, you will find a lot of information about its history.

I have sold countless Cuervo y Sobrinos watches, and this is the first time I have come across someone who does not know how to deal with this brand [...] people who buy should know what I am explaining.

3. Why Longines cannot validate all Cuervo watches

When Longines reviews its records, all it finds is the initial shipment of the movement:

“Movement caliber 12.68Z, shipped in 1939 to Baume & Co., England.”

However, Longines does not record the modifications, resoldering, or local dials that Cuervo y Sobrinos subsequently made.

Therefore, if someone writes to them today and shows them a watch that has already been customized in Havana, Longines can only say:

“This movement does not match the model described in our records.”

And that's normal, because their records reflect the factory, not the local market or distributors' workshops.

The watch was working properly.

If you want to find a flaw, you can find it in the intensity of the light, whether it's square or round, etc.

None of that is valid! What is valid is that the movement is 100% Longines, corresponding to the period. The dial is a Cuervo y Sobrinos Hotel Plaza. You have it in your hands; a collector can identify an antique watch just by holding it [...]

Cuervo y Sobrinos is the best-known watch brand in Cuba among watch enthusiasts. I don't need to copy and paste; that information is common knowledge among all collectors. If you do a little research, you will find a lot of information about its history.

I have sold countless Cuervo y Sobrinos watches, and this is the first time I have come across someone who does not know how to deal with this brand [...] people who buy should know what I am explaining."

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