Credor Minute Repeater Decimal Repeater

KIH · 2011-04-28T17:00:09Z

Explore the Credor Minute Repeater, a decimal repeater from Seiko, with insights into its Grand Sonnerie principle and unique Japanese design influences.

KIH

WPS member · Seiko forum

30 replies26035 views38 photos

KIH's detailed report on the Credor Minute Repeater offers an exclusive glimpse into one of Seiko's most complex and revered creations. His account not only covers the technical marvel of the timepiece, which debuted at Basel, but also provides crucial historical context on Seiko's manufacturing divisions. This article serves as an essential resource for understanding the intricate craftsmanship and corporate structure behind such high-horology pieces.

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An Evening with Credor Minute Repeater

The signage of SEIKO Holdings and SEIKO Watch Co. in the lobby.

I had a pleasure to be invited (well, truth be told, I persistently asked for it...) to SEIKO head office the other evening and could finally see, touch, handle and hear the Novelty Credor Minute Repeater which debuted at the Basel last month. This piece went to Basel, came back and was displayed at Wako (high-end department store at the Ginza 4-chome crossing, owned by SEIKO) for two weeks and was on its way back to Shiojiri Manufacture for further refinement/ tuning. So this exact specimen is the one some of you actually saw, touched, or heard in Basel.

1. Where is this made by who?
I think I have to explain a little bit the story about the two major manufactories of SEIKO here. There is one in Tohoku Region (where the major disaster hit recently) called Morioka Seiko Instruments Inc. in which there is SEIKO Shizukuishi Watch Studio. I reported the factory visit in February home.watchprosite.com. There is another major factory in Nagano prefecture, near Suwa City, called SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory. That's right, this one belongs to SEIKO Epson Corporation, which is a separate public company listed on Tokyo Stock Exchange, a different entity from SEIKO Watch or SEIKO Holdings or SEIKO Insruments Inc. which owns Morioka Seiko and Shizukuishi Watch Studio. There is no cross holding of the stocks between SEIKO Holdings and SEIKO Epson - again, both are listed public companies. SEIKO Epson is far more famous for its printer products, as you may know. Watch division of SEIKO Epson is really the fraction of its total revenue.

This somewhat strange organization is due to its history that involves some influence of the WW II. As I explained the history of SEIKO in the Shizukuishi visit report, there was SEIKOSHA which was making clocks and very early part of watches and then DAI-NI (The Second) SEIKOSHA was later set-up which started making only wrist watches. They were, of course, sister companies owned by the same parent entity. And there was the War and DAI-NI SEIKOSHA moved its major part of production facilities to Suwa, Nagano to avoid the intense air raid (Tokyo was of course the major target). After the WW II, DAI-NI SEIKOSHA Suwa Factory merged with a local manufacturer and changed its name to Suwa SEIKOSHA Later Suwa SEIKOSHA again changed its name to SEIKO Epson.

Enough of history class here. The bottom line is that the Shizukuishi Watch Studio which makes mechanical Grand Seiko, and SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory which makes Spring Drive (for Grand Seiko and others) and Quartz (for Grand Seiko and many others) are NOT in the same corporate family, in terms of the ownership. Surely, the founder's family may own part of both companies, but their stocks are both publicly traded. In pure business term, SEIKO Epson is one of the suppliers of SEIKO Watch on the contract basis.

Going forward in this article, when I say "SEIKO", that should mean both companies/ manufactories for the convenience of the readers - in fact the watch division of SEIKO Epson is treated that way by SEIKO Watch Corporation as well.

2. Credor Minute Repeater
Sorry to have kept you waiting. Here is the report of the product:

(1) Is the Minute Repeater part of the watch operated electronically (with the power generated by the unwinding of the main spring)?
No. The MR part is TOTALLY mechanical. But the MR part and the watch (Spring Drive) part share the same twin barrel as the power source.

This plate is meant for the owner to ask for engraving something.

(2) The MR function is triggered by a push button, not the lever to be pushed up which we usually expect. Is the MR triggered electronically?
No. The push switch is like the push button of the chronograph. It makes the power released by the unwinding spring go to the MR mechanism as well. There is a safety feature which locks the crown and the push button while the MR mechanism is working (and the all-reset push button as well). See figure below. Please see and hear the first video. Note that this is the decimal repeater - it gongs each hour and 10 minutes and a minute. 10 minutes counting is more familiar with Japanese culture.
Without MR, the twin barrel has 72 hours of power reserve. Roughly speaking, one MR function eats 2-3 hours of power reserve. About water resistance - the movement is tightly sealed and protected while the gong is placed outside the seal.

The pusher besides the MR button is "(emergency) all reset" button in case the MR function stops due to the lack of main spring winding while all others are still totally locked by the safety feature.

Safety mechanism that locks crown and the push button while MR is in action

Video #1 - just listen.

URL=http://youtu.be/h6-s4Y5petg?hd=1

(3) The Concept of this Credor MR
There are many brands that make minute repeater and SEIKO did not want to make the similar one, but something different. They chose MR Japanese way by using the materials of hundreds of years of tradition and secret recipe - the wind bell, particularly the one seen here. The wind bell has been one of the most typical and common scenes of summer in Japan - its pure, clean and transparent sound gives cool feeling from the ears. Some use iron/ steel like this one, some use glass, and some use other materials - each region has one with its tradition for hundreds of years. To the ears of SEIKO Team, this particularly in the pic was especially good.
Sadly, nowadays, the most household have A/C and keep the window closed, thus less wind bell are seen or heard....

(4) The Sound
The sound is from the wind bell with hundreds of years of history at Himeji area (Himeji is the place my family cemetery has been for the past several hundreds of years and it is in the western part of Japan - a bit west of Osaka and Kobe.) The secret of the clean, transparent sound of that wind bell is its iron made with secret recipe. Acoustically speaking, in general, higher frequency dies faster than the lower frequency because the higher freq. get killed by the air - simple physics. But with this special iron/ steel, the high frequency somehow survives longer (than the normal iron, I take it). SEIKO did confirm by measuring it, of course. These are the hammers made with the special iron/steel. And there is a ring of the same iron/steel inside the case between the case and the movement with just right width of the air chamber to fine tune and vibrate the sound.
Please see video #2 and hear the sound again while seeing the hammers move.

Mr. Motegi - the designer and the architect of this movement.

Video #2 - listen and see the hammer

URL=http://youtu.be/PIHB9gd6EYA?hd=1

(5) Slow Governor
Slow Governor is one of the necessary mechanism for minute repeaters to maintain the rhythm of the gong. SEIKO here came up with another unique solution by using "viscosity of the air". Traditional governor gives relatively loud background noise and it is getting less noisy in the newer repeaters. This new governor mechanism does not touch anywhere mechanically and there is no background mechanical noise. See the photo below. On the left hand side is the rice, and see the two springs in the main part of the governor on the right hand side. This governor rotates at high speed when MR mechanism is engaged. When it rotates fast, the governor expands its "wing" and in the air-tight sealed compartment this part is placed in, "viscosity of the air" or air resistance increases and the rotation speed slows down (just a little bit). When it slows down, the "wing" retracts (just a little bit) and the "viscosity of the air" or air resistance decreases and it speeds up again..... and it maintains the speed of rotation.
Please see the video #3 paying particular attention to the fast rotation of the governor from the front glass (maybe too fast to actually see it for most of us, though). Also please see the slow rotation of the barrel on which Shiojiri's City Flower - Bell Flower (what a correct name it is!) is engraved - as explained above, MR and Spring Drive share the same spring/ barrel as the power source.

A Rice and Governor parts

Governor module

The Governor from the front glass.

Bell Flower - City Flower of Shiojiri

Bell Flower on the Barrel

Video #3 - TRY to see the governor rotate and the Bell Blower rotate as well.

URL=http://youtu.be/5LIo9WRLGJM?hd=1

(6) Finish
The finish is also superb, especially the edges of the various bridges. They use many types of files and Gentian (a shrub). Mr. Shiohara - see below; highly decorated watchmaker at Shiojiri - has become very friendly with Mr. Philippe Dufour over the years of correspondences (Mr. Shiohara had been a big fan of Mr. Dufour), who suggested Gentian for polishing (he uses that method, too).

(7) Other shots

3. New Grand Seiko High Beat
I also had an opportunity to see the newest addition to Grand Seiko. Although there has or will be no official press release, this is the newest Hi Beat - SBGH013. Will be available sometime this week by the end of April. Very cool, retro looking, reminds me of SBGW003 LE. This is not LE and this is not manual winding.... I am waiting for the day when SEIKO releases the manual winding Hi Beat, but in the meanwhile, this may be good... this one is growing on me more and more...

4. Appendix
After the private viewing of this marvelous MR, we went to dinner and Mr. Hara of SEIKO Watch PR team showed me his watch of the day. Wow! The one I reported last time - Mr. Sakurada's 68xx movement and this is 120th anniversary LE (10 yrs ago). See the logo "U.T.D. (Ultra Thin Dressy)"? THAT is the signature of the legendary 68xx calibar models.....

===========================================================================================

That's it. Hope you understand a bit about the little known fact about the relationship of Shizukuishi and Shiojiri. I also asked the very question you all might have - why don't you make "all mechanical" MR? The technology and the skill of the Shizukuishi mechanical watch studio + the design and structuring the complication of Shiojiri must yield a fantastic "all mechanical Grand Seiko MR" in the future.... The answer is not conclusive as of today. Those two manufactures are now kinda "rival" under separate umbrella, but one day these two will hopefully work together.

Shiojiri Manufactory has Mr. Shiohara who mainly tuned the sound of this model and Mr. Nakata who is the master watchmaker at Shiojiri - they have both been chosen as “Contemporary Master Craftsmen” of Japan and Mr. Shiohara also has been awarded “Yellow Ribbon Medal” from the government, just like Mr. Sakurada (master watchmaker at Shizukuishi) and Mr. Terui (Master Engraver at Shizukuishi). The potential of SEIKO is enormous, I dare say, with these talents.

Mr. Shiohara - "Contemporary Master Craftsman" of Japan, and "Yellow Ribbon Medal" recipient.

Mr. Nakata - "Contemporary Master Craftsman" of Japan

Thanks again, SEIKO PR Team - Mr. Matsumoto, GM, and Mr. Hara.

Thank you for reading through.

- Ken

This message has been edited by MTF on 2011-05-01 07:26:04 This message has been edited by KIH on 2011-05-02 04:59:17

About the Seiko Ref. SBGH315

The Grand Seiko SBGH315 is a contemporary mechanical timepiece from the brand's Heritage Collection, known for its classic design and high-beat movement. This model continues Grand Seiko's tradition of producing watches that combine precision engineering with understated elegance, appealing to collectors who appreciate refined horology without overt embellishment. It stands as a testament to the brand's commitment to the fundamental principles of watchmaking.

Powered by the Hi-Beat Caliber 9S85, the SBGH315 operates at 36,000 vibrations per hour, ensuring high accuracy. The watch features a stainless steel case, a sapphire crystal with anti-reflective coating, and a screw-down case back. Its dial is often characterized by intricate textures and meticulously finished hands and markers, reflecting Grand Seiko's renowned Zaratsu polishing technique.

For collectors, the SBGH315 represents a modern interpretation of Grand Seiko's historical high-beat movements. Its combination of a robust, high-frequency caliber and a timeless aesthetic makes it a sought-after piece. The model underscores Grand Seiko's position as a manufacture capable of producing movements and finishes comparable to leading Swiss brands.

Specifications

Caliber: 9S85

Case: Stainless Steel

Diameter: 39.5mm

Dial: White/Silver textured

Water Resist.: 100m

Crystal: Box-shaped sapphire with anti-reflective coating

Key Points from the Discussion

The Credor Minute Repeater is a decimal repeater, a design choice influenced by Japanese cultural preferences for counting in units of 10, as opposed to the quarter system common in Western horology.
The minute repeater's striking mechanism operates on a Grand Sonnerie principle, requiring energy for the strike rather than relying solely on the activation of the slide.
The governor module of the Credor Minute Repeater is a particularly admired component, highlighting the intricate engineering involved in its chiming mechanism.
Despite its complexity, the Credor Minute Repeater is praised for its simple and elegant finish, a testament to the master watchmaker's skill.
The Credor Minute Repeater was a significant highlight at the Basel fair, seen as a logical progression from the Credor Sonnerie, though its price gap was a point of discussion.
The specific specimen reviewed was a 'FINAL' prototype, treated with extreme care, and featured a rose gold deployant buckle.
The organizational structure of Seiko involves two major manufactories, Morioka Seiko Instruments Inc. (Shizukuishi Watch Studio) and SEIKO Epson Shiojiri factory, which are separate public companies with distinct ownership.

The Discussion

flamenco

Apr 28, 2011

Amazing Report !

Thanks for taking the time and effort to compile this. The Credor min rep is a huge fav of mine, if only I could afford it !! The governor module takes the cake for me. Look forward to a more in depth report of the SBGH013, if any is in plan. Is this also using the vunerable 9S85 caliber ? Time to make a trip to the lottery counter during lunch

KIH

Apr 28, 2011

Yes, SBGH013 has the same calibar as other Hi-Beat.

I have not planned to review it, but I will think about that Thank you! Ken

Davo

Apr 28, 2011

Excellent report!

What a piece of work that MR is! And packed with 112 jewels?! Incredible... Domo, Ken-san!

playtime

Apr 28, 2011

an intriguing read!

thanks for sharing J