Comments:
First, nothing is confirmed
and to answer your question, I think that they can "cah-in" as you said but it would be with a high cost on the brands image.
The image of Patek Philippe is built on steadyness, honesty and reliability of his history and the decision they took since the beginning.
The historical pieces have such a wide aura over the watchmaking industry because of their uniqueness.
They'll never jeopardize this balance to "cash-in" a little more.
There are much safer and easier way to do it whith new references.
Many brands have ahd a cash-in-only strategy and it always ended badly for them.
It is the same with Photography. Not repecting limited editions have a very bad impact on an artist image.
Cheers, Mark
The image of Patek Philippe is built on steadyness, honesty and reliability of his history and the decision they took since the beginning.
The historical pieces have such a wide aura over the watchmaking industry because of their uniqueness.
They'll never jeopardize this balance to "cash-in" a little more.
There are much safer and easier way to do it whith new references.
Many brands have ahd a cash-in-only strategy and it always ended badly for them.
It is the same with Photography. Not repecting limited editions have a very bad impact on an artist image.
Cheers, Mark
Let's make the maths at least partly correct...
There are 15 references meaning totally 75 watches. The average price is £ 92,328 meaning around £ 76,940 net of VAT. The margin of the AD is 50% so net for Patek per watch is £ 38,470. This gives us a total turnover of £ 2,885,000 but that's not the profit. Take away all the costs and probably these pieces are supposed to cover a part of the costs of the Grand Exhibition. So that's quite far away from "5-10 millions profit".
I do not get the way Patek has priced these watches. Why is a perpetual calendar cheaper than a chronograph? Or probably it costs the same to make a special batch of salmon coloured or dark blue dials. How can the platinum cased 5070 cost over € 30,000 more than the white gold one?
Anyhow, all will be sold and the seller has the right to put the prices on their products. We are free not to buy.
Best, Kari
It was just an estimate
I didn't know the prices when I posted that and I have to say, the list prices were far less than I expected. I was also unaware at the time that the Lemania movements were old unused stock. Given this information, it certainly doesn't seem like Patek have started re-issuing discontinued models. I just posited that they could make money by making new versions of the references based on Lemania movements however out of character or misguided that may be
Naturally hey also make money.
But that's the intention of each and every corporation. I could say that with our tankers I from my small part try to secure the energy supply of all countries. I could also say straight that I acquire tankers in order to make more money i.e. to buy overly expensive watches.
Business is business.
Best, Kari
Let's try to confirm if the info is right or even accurate and there is a difference...
.... between making additional pieces and just having not sold all of the production at that time and keeping several for another event in the future.
I understand you point Bruno, if it happens to be true.
But I'd prefer we are sure about every details before creating an uncalled for buzz.
It would certainly be interesting to have more info on this matter. Maybe Imran could help from London ?
Cheers Bruno,
Mark
I understand you point Bruno, if it happens to be true.
But I'd prefer we are sure about every details before creating an uncalled for buzz.
It would certainly be interesting to have more info on this matter. Maybe Imran could help from London ?
Cheers Bruno,
Mark
They are definitely on display in London
Patekaholic and Patekcollector have pictures on Instagram. The description mentions 5 pieces for sale for each one. I don't know if they really are for sale or just for display but they seem to fairly reputable members of other forums so I don't know why they would post misleading info
There is a huge difference...
...between unveilling 5 watches from an existing model (and not reference) and layout and making a kind of anniversary model with a different layout (dial color etc...).
Here it seems the watches are new and not the same reference than the 2000's ones.
That's what I mean by interest to wait for confirmation and further details.
Here it seems the watches are new and not the same reference than the 2000's ones.
That's what I mean by interest to wait for confirmation and further details.
I took a photo of the price list.
It's late in London and I have an early flight but here they come all prices in GBP:
3940G-029 66,670
3940R-027 66,670
3940EP-046 162,970
3970ER- 028 133,340
5050J-019 74,080
5059G-018 81,490
5059J-017 74,080
5059P-018 92,500
5059R-017 81,490
5070G-014 88,890
5070J-012 81,490
5070P-013 111,120
5070R-014 88,890
5970G-019 170,380
5970J-014 162,970
More knowledge, less speculation. Hope this helps.
Best, Kari
Now, we have the evidence that Patek values more the 5070 than the 5170.
It is a fact, and I agree with Patek on thar point, and only on that point.
Best,
Nicolas
That's one kind of logic...
But I still can't see what has it to do with 5170.
When making a special version of 3940 with 240Q movement and 5140 is having the same movement, can we draw a conclusion that Patek values more the 240Q movements used in 3940 more than the ones used in 5140?
I think the pricing has nothing to do with appreciating something more than something else. It's just a matter of supply and demand. Rarity creates demand and through this, the prices go up. Both 3712 and 5712 have the same movements and still people pay more for an used 3712 than a brand new 5712. Still the watches look the same and the movements are the same.
Crazy world!
Best, Kari
So you are saying that Patek doens't price their watches in regard of their intrinsic
Value?
On others more subjective criterias?
Interesting, but a bit disappointing, from a so called serious brand... In my opinion, of course.
Do you know one who does ?
In the > 10 K, I don't.
There is much more in a watch than its intrinsic value.
Sometimes it is justified (and sometimes not).
This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2015-05-31 08:33:34
There is much more in a watch than its intrinsic value.
Sometimes it is justified (and sometimes not).
This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2015-05-31 08:33:34
Like stated earlier, I'm not a spokesperson of Patek
But saying that they would operate in a different way than any other commercial manufacturer would be hypocrisy.
I would like to buy 5070P but there are two problems. First of all, I don't think that Patek would allocate one for me. Secondly, I would never pay € 150k for a simple chronograph. I just ordered a Porsche 911 Targa 4 GTS with all possible equipment (I got good rebates). With VAT the car is around € 2 k cheaper than 5070P. That's insane!
Anyhow, if I would own Patek, I would probably price the watches more or less in the same way they do. We all have the option not to buy and I find it quite funny to blame a commercial company for their high prices.
There's no sense how Hermes is pricing the handbags. But still they sell those and some people buy the same. I don't but that's based on my free will.
Best, Kari
Good choice!
About the targa 4gts! The last naturally aspirated carrera, in targa even better.
About the price of the 5070P, 150k might seem a lot, but on the other hand, the price might go even further up.
As much as i love the porsche and i would prefer it to the 5070P,... the price will go down.
Just a matter of priorities. I'd say porsche
For me it was easy.
I got a very good offer of a new GTS and I took really nearly all equipment plus a lot of leather & cargo. In this case the Targa 4 GTS is quite exactly €2 k less than 5070. I have a couple of watches but only on Porsche. So it was nicer to get a fun car than a nice watch.
Whet comes to the "values" of watches: I would not bet that they will stay forever in the current insane level. In my own business I experience all the time the volatility and if people get bored with fine watches and they go out of fashion for the bigger audience, we will see a major collapse.
Best, Kari
"Values" of watches is a big debate...
... Beside the general increase in the whole watch industry with more and more expensive models. There is on top of that some crazy prices in auctions where its clear there is some manipulations behind the curtain.
At some point, it stops to make sense, paying more and more unjustified prices... For what? Adding another piece? Once you will own it and wear it for a while, it will go back to the safe to give its turn to another favorite, while you will start aiming at the next one. Never ending story.
I fully agree with you... Better enjoy a good ride in a nice car. You got tempted by the price, but you couldn't have made a better choice... Which color combo?
Totally metallic black
and inside black leather, carbon, red stitching and red seat belts.
The point for me is that how can such a 1,500 kilos of very high engineering plus a lot of leather cost less than a watch with common, although well finnished movement. It's totally insane!
All bubbles tend to explode. And the bigger the bubble is, the louder BANG we will hear.
Best
Kari
well, explain me why
some paintings are sold for millions, ten million and a hundred million
It's canvas , paint and a few hours work.
There are pens, tableware, audio, everything you want …. that cost more than a Porsche
Why the hell would somebody pay hundreds of thousands or even millions for a comic book, baseball cards, or a freaking stamp ?
Just because the mankind is crazy.
You listed a couple of examples and there are more in all fields of human life. Just have a look at international politics.
I am a dedicated fan of Patek Philippe. However, I have huge difficulties to understand their pricing of the "Special Edition" 5070. I listened very carefully what Mr. Stern said in his speech in London on 27th of May at around 21:30. What he said and how they price the limited edition watches are not really meeting each others.
Like I have said earlier, we are in the fantastic situation that we do not need to buy. I would love to have 5070P and I could afford it but for sure, I will not pay the requested price. It's not really art, it's just a much wanted modern watch and it is priced like it is because the seller know that there are people prepared to pay the price.
Best, Kari
What is art
To one person may not be considered art by another, but trying to determine what is art and what isn't
is purely subjective and up to the viewer.
I'll enjoy my art, and if someone doesn't agree with me that's fine. It's not art because someone else says it is.
It's art because I believe it to be.
I'm not defending the pricing of the London watches, but I don't think it's fair to categorize what is art and what isn't.
Sincerely
H.
is purely subjective and up to the viewer.
I'll enjoy my art, and if someone doesn't agree with me that's fine. It's not art because someone else says it is.
It's art because I believe it to be.
I'm not defending the pricing of the London watches, but I don't think it's fair to categorize what is art and what isn't.
Sincerely
H.
true true true....
... i believe it will burst too, about modern Patek, i think it already started to slow down.
About the porsche, great choice of color, it enhance the silver bridge specific to the targa.
Yes, but Kari in 5 or 10 years a car will loose from 50 to 70%. Not the watch. [nt]
In the mean time, I agreee that prices are high of course.
Just that since there are buyers who find what they want at that price, then it is quite a normal situation.
The problem are the people who go "in" just because they speculate. If those have a problem during a bubble burst, then they can only blame themselves.
Cheers, Mark
This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2015-06-02 10:40:35
Just that since there are buyers who find what they want at that price, then it is quite a normal situation.
The problem are the people who go "in" just because they speculate. If those have a problem during a bubble burst, then they can only blame themselves.
Cheers, Mark
This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2015-06-02 10:40:35
Mark,
very often I agree with you but not now.
The prices of the highest end watches have nothing to do with reality. This means that there's a heck of a bubble in the pricing. At the moment the high end watches are fashionable luxury items but if they go out of fashion, what then?
I predict that when the collapse will start, and it will sooner or later, a huge amount of "watch investors" will try to sell their high end watches and this will help the total collapse to materialise. At that moment nobody wants to buy the high end watches with stupid prices and the manufacturers need to cut the production and drop the prices. Perhaps you, Nico and myself will still buy something but when the big masses are missing, the luxury watch business will vaporise into the air very rapidly.
We have seen the same curve so often. First growing interest, booming sales and prices, reaching insane levels and BOOM! A collapse.
Best, Kari
Kari, we don't seem to be of different opinion on that matter.
I completly agree on what you wrote.
I don't know if it will happen but there is a risk indeed.
However, I won't buy at any price and when the bubbule bursts I may be there but I don't think it will kill the brand for all that.
What you cal "the investors" will have trouble but it was their choice and they took the risks.
And I would say that it may be good too that a brand can make "reserves" in case of bad times.
It has been that way since many very long and in many fields, other than watches.
My opinion is that it always finishes by solving itself: a purifying burst is a "healthy" event in a market.
If some want to buy a watch anyway, whatever is the price, is not a problem. They are the only one who will assume the loss.
Cheers, Mark
I don't know if it will happen but there is a risk indeed.
However, I won't buy at any price and when the bubbule bursts I may be there but I don't think it will kill the brand for all that.
What you cal "the investors" will have trouble but it was their choice and they took the risks.
And I would say that it may be good too that a brand can make "reserves" in case of bad times.
It has been that way since many very long and in many fields, other than watches.
My opinion is that it always finishes by solving itself: a purifying burst is a "healthy" event in a market.
If some want to buy a watch anyway, whatever is the price, is not a problem. They are the only one who will assume the loss.
Cheers, Mark