Independents

Major brand haute horology sold me a watch 13K…four units were defective (major issues) in a row. Finally I said I want a cash refund. The snooty manager directed me to the signed bill of sale stating “no cash refunds” to which I responded “I have recorded all of our conversations and will have my assistant transcribe them and post them in every blog I can find and we can let your future customers make up their own mind”. I had a cash refund that very day. On the one hand yes I made an agreement when I signed the receipt on the other hand they showed bad faith and never providing a watch that worked. Not a direct comment on this situation but in truth I’ve never seen such bad faith coming from a major brand at that price point…. EVER and it was my complete believe that this was an institutional approach not a one off situation.

Watch Purest pro is a wonderful watch collectors site and very informational but being a gentleman and being a businessman means, as you stay above, a person has to protect themselves. I’ve been in business for 48 years and my reputation is what has helped me grow into a very successful midsize business. Being honorable goes both ways, in my case I did ask that the deposit be refundable and so I have the choice to take the watch or not. I’m very sorry to hear that you went through what you did and the company should have given you your money back right away, your story is a good example of whoever has the most power wins. I do hope people give me their opinions on the The watch itself and it’s collectibility, I’ll take care of the business side . Thank you again… Jim

I agree with you 100% when you make a deal you make a deal, that being said I specifically asked that the deposit be refundable because I had never seen any of these watches in person. Following the market for the last few months it seems these watches from singer have not been hugely sought after, there’s two on Chrono24 and since I only made 15 of them they should’ve all been gobbled up. That doesn’t necessarily take me out of buying the watch but I do have the option from a business perspective… Jim

It's all about "business" with you, and that's your choice.

I don’t appreciate your comment, I’m not buying on spec and I’m not a flipper However I am an astute businessman and appreciate value along with passion… Jim

You mention, several times, that your big concern is value retention and prices on C24. If you are truly buying it for you, secondary prices shouldn't be your #1 concern. You didn't ask about long term serviceability, wearability or any other aspect of the watch related to actualing owning and wearing it. Just secondary price.
You can not appreciate my comments all day long, but that reflects your feelings about yourself, not me or mine - the only reason you'd take offense is if you felt that being a flipper was a bad thing and if you felt there was some truth to my comment. After all, if being a flipper isn't a bad thing, and if you aren't one, then my comments should have no impact on you. My comments aren't meant to be insulting or hurtful, but knowing your true motivation for the watch helps me, and the community, give you honest feedback and help, which is why you asking the question in the first place, right?

You last post does not make sense, at least to me. Your opinions are your own but you must walk in another persons shoes to know what they may or may not think…enough said…Jim

a deposit is just that, a deposit. Even if this was a contract to buy one has always the right to say no if he doesn't like the watch or changes his mind. Let's not forget that major brands like Vacheron, JLC, and many others do allow you even the possibility to buy a watch online and return it (within 2 weeks or 1 month) if you don't like it. I find this to be fair to the customer that has to be protected and has the right to change his mind, even if he bought the watch and paid it. A photo can never be representative of the experience "in the metal".

and never will be, but I have my own taste and I can only suggest you:

It is unfortunate on this site that because one looks at value along with being a purist there’s something wrong with that. For people like me collecting is a passion, I don’t always have to love what I buy if it fits in my collection and my personal tastes. That being said I rarely buy something I don’t truly love and that’s why I’m asking questions now. Again thank you for your comments, I’ll follow my instincts… Jim

For me, “collecting” is a personal thing where I want to feel there is value in the things I have (or am lusting after), and not always is that about monetary value - that being said, I wouldn’t like the thought of losing my proverbials by buying something that will go to zero value once I walk out of the store.

There are pieces I have that make me happy I have them - because I like them, possibly partly due to the hype around them, but also because I feel the value will hold and it will be one less reason for my wife to want to kill me

Other pieces I have simply because I find them interesting, and likely someone else will also find them interesting (though perhaps not as many as with the old reliables of PP or Rolex). This they could be considered “collectible” for various reasons in my opinion.

I think building a collection is about having a mix of things that you like, with some as general foundation pieces in terms of design, movements and of course values, but others that are more indulgent in a just-because-I-like-it and to hell with the value down the line (of course depending on the purchase price too!).
I would hazard a guess that with the popularity of the Singer brand, there will likely always be some sort of market for these limited prices. And either way, if you decide to pick it up (I don’t know if it’s either/or with the Moser) you’ll know that you have something quite rare on your wrist, and won’t bump into anyone else with one (probably) which in itself is a nice “value” to have


All the very best in your decision Jim.
Niall

I agree 100%, building a collection is a mix of things and some of those things tie to other things we collect, like Porsche‘s. That takes a decision somewhat out of the purest realm and in to the logic realm. I do know when I wear a watch when someone actually comments on it I’m jazzed no matter what the watch is so being different and rarity counts . Common sense and logic rule the day in my world… mixed in with fun and compassion and my heart being a consultant to my brain… Jim

many things have been said in this thread. The one thing that makes me participate in the discussion is a sentence in the post above „my heart being a consultant to my brain“.

My world is ruled by logic too. I‘m a businessman and an engineer by training. I know my systems, my processes and my reasons. But when it comes to my passions, I try very consciously to give space to my heart and let it decide without the brain. I am a very happy person not least because of this principle I try to apply in life.

Just my 2 cents.

Best, Daniel

I believe Singer is a small, highest-end car customizer who only really appeals to Porsche people. There are plenty of those in the world, but the Porsche lovers who also like watches are also sought after by Porsche themselves and a variety of other watch brands who do a "special Porsche edition" or homage. You may say 15 is a small number but the price is a big number and that rules out most who might be interested.
I say no, it won't be collectible because as a watch company Singer is insignificant. And the movement is used elsewhere. It takes too much explaining... just buy another Porsche instead and no explanations will be required.
That's my 2¢.
Mike

I doubt they would keep the price for long...if it appears so is just because there are very few buyers. No reason to cost more than the moser.

I wouldn't be surprised to see many of these unsold or ...sold and then unable to be moved. The design is also not so wow. So unless one is totally in love with it and plans to keep it, easy pass.

Your point is well taken… Jim

The movement is amazing but the watch itself never put a big smile on my face

Is the watch interesting? Yes, I think so.  I actually like the dial and emphasis on the chronograph.  And of course the movement is widely recognized, so no questioning that aspect really.

It is interesting and why I have followed them. I held off so far on the other models as I had the Moser coming. It is a confusing complex looking dial and I really can’t see myself timing something for 60 hours!…JIm

Especially when there isn’t the opportunity to handle something be it a watch or any item before one has to commit to purchase.

I have emailed the AD to pass, I will take your idea of applying th e deposit to another purchase since they are a good size A.D. thanks for the help and advice…JIm

www.rwsmithwatches.com-have you looked at this watch maker?

I will see Sir Roger Smith in about a week to discuss the watch I ordered over a year ago. I can only hope it will be one of my next watches, thank you…Jim

… but the Skeleton variant doesn’t do it for me. The Geneva, London, or Emirates editions are better executions of the design (to me) and more legible at that. I also question the large YG premium vs the non-pm variants. The Agengraphe movement is indeed a gem and glad you’ll experience it either through Singer and/or Moser. FWIW, I like the Singer Track1 design better than the Moser Flyback, just not the biggest fan of the specific model you have a deposit down on. I ended up with the Emirates edition over the Moser Flyback.

Agenhor has production limitations so any iteration of the Agengraphe will be limited in nature. Agenhor will be responsible for servicing the movement so you’ll be in good hands either way. Best of luck with your decision Jim!