Comments:
I have more appreciation for...
I have more appreciation for some and less for some. Overall I am slightly less interested now but that has nothing to do with in or out - I love the learning aspect about a new hobby and feel a bit out of that phase with this one.
sent from my phone
Certainly understandable.
I look forward to your next phase in hobbies, and hope you'll share your experiences with us!
Daos
Daos"most of this stuff is shit"
whilke I am sure we read different meanings in to this, just on the surface level of this statement to watches, I must say I generally agree.
'Soul' is what separates 'art' from 'entertainment'...
and here is where the watch industry is in great danger to get their knickers in a twist.
In the former days horological production was constrained by material and skill but also by the pride of the craftsmen and -women. You could to that, but you don't because it does not fully fulfill your own aesthetic and technical standards.
That changed (well, there are a few, perhaps two, companies who still insist on the old proudness...).
Much, too much recently has been done because its possible, not because it makes sense. The world of horology is a crowded place nowadays, and everybody is desperately screaming for attention.
To a large extent the industry is the victim of their own success. It grew and grew, thanks a great deal to new customers. At the same time the customer base got more and more educated, also because of the existence of knowledge hubs such as this very site. And got more demanding! In-house movements and complications are mainstream now and not enough to attract interest. Many buyers are not really watch enthusiasts and its difficult to build a long-lasting relationship with them on the basis of freesprung balances and flying tourbillons.
Thus out-of-the-world complications and designs are devised and exotic materials are employed to address the very problem that oh so many watch owners plague, like the low efficiency of power generation a watch achieves when a cat sneaks her fur along the left side of the case... ;-)
In the consequence, watch companies lost a bit of touch with their inner voice, a voice that would have told them when enough is enough for the benefit of identity. Watch companies are - like any industry - managed by professional managers who (naturally) love their yearly bonus more than a fine watch - more profit rules.
Watch companies are thus very sensitive to the lure of mammon and are in great danger to prostitute themselves on the altar of sales as sales go. This is a self-enforcing cycle.
And artful industry turned into an entertainment channel. In a very recent and excellently thought-provoking thread initiated by pplater I presented my personal proposal for an healthy exit which would necessitate to take the word horology serious...:
- Have the guts to give us a simple, well-designed and executed watch. Done in an original way this is exiting, trust me!
- Order a ban on all hyperbole used in advertising, this is an insult to the more educated part of your audience
- Rediscover the handicraft and skills involved in creating a watch, instead resorting to (nano-) chemical processes that are easily (and rather sooner than later) to be adopted by any me-to brands out there
- Omit all star(let) testaments and sponsoring of 'exclusive' events for the selected few, its us who pay for this... (but for how long?)
- Listen less to you accountants when drawing up the 2012 price lists
- Open your hearts (and promises (and booths)) to the watch-loving audience, we are quite nice guys, mostly not a nuisance and certainly much more than cows to milk!
- Gain insights into the essence of your brand, understand it and let it flourish instead of brabbling about its 'DNA'
- You should not fear the words 'emotion' and 'romance'. But consider that those can't be ordered or planned - let your restraints go and you'll see!
I am saving this for spring 2013...
Cheers,
Magnus
I agree 100% and ...
Magnus,
A large portion of the current lack of soul is a simple consequence of the lack of watch education of the newcomers (or new money).
If you look on the advertising material of the past, they had, give or take, an educational content. They used to explain what was the meaning of many things (water proof, shock proof, chronometer etc.)
Today the material, from the same companies, push only on the sexy side of the equation or, worst, on those "ambassadors", on a very similar way that they used to sell ... cigarettes on the past.
The sad portion of this is that, IMHO, today's watches are much better made, uses better materials and carries more quality than ever (statistically speaking).
Cheers,
Nilo
A large portion of the current lack of soul is a simple consequence of the lack of watch education of the newcomers (or new money).
If you look on the advertising material of the past, they had, give or take, an educational content. They used to explain what was the meaning of many things (water proof, shock proof, chronometer etc.)
Today the material, from the same companies, push only on the sexy side of the equation or, worst, on those "ambassadors", on a very similar way that they used to sell ... cigarettes on the past.
The sad portion of this is that, IMHO, today's watches are much better made, uses better materials and carries more quality than ever (statistically speaking).
Cheers,
Nilo
I wonder
The prices do seem more inflated as I have walked through ADs over the years. At the same time, I have spent less time in ADs over the years because most of the watches do seem so similar with one brand or product line blending into another. However, I agree that the finishings and technical quality of watches have generally increased in the past 10 years. Also, I often find the new complications or sub-models trotted out at every SIHH very forced and just a way of pushing sales. Of course, this has been going on for longer than 10 years and is not limited to the watch industry. Indeed, I think they teach this at every business school.
This message has been edited by Roger Kint on 2012-01-15 16:34:22
I do find myself turning to the internet more often over time although this carries significant risk and you have to absolutely make sure you know what you are doing. And over the years, I have found better and better bargins online (even after taking price inflation into account), especially with gently used, moderately complicated, precious metal watches from famous makers. I believe that this is actually the result of so many watches being sold these days to the newly rich in the developing parts of the world. By the way, I do not feel there is anything wrong about this. Newly rich people in Western Europe and America have done the same thing forever. However, just like people used to melt down their silverware 300 years ago when times got tough, people (no matter where they live) often sell off their watches first (often at a severe discount) when they go through tough economic times. This helps the serious collectors who are patient and do not need to buy something "brand new."
Most of the serious collectors I know rarely, if ever, go to ADs anymore. To anyone who is willing to deal with a few scratches that can be polished off at the next service, there are incredible deals to be had on the internet. What will actually happen to watchmakers over time, I am less sure. There could come a time when the MSRPs are no longer sustainable, the buying public will no longer stomach the price increases for minor variations and the business models based on them will force some watchmakers to go out of business. Again, I do not think the associated drop in prices as the bubble bursts will affect the serious collectors as much; most do not pay anywhere near MSRP and most collect watches for personal pleasure for the long term.
This message has been edited by Roger Kint on 2012-01-15 16:34:22
thank you
Steve,
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I agree w/ much of your commentary around the price increases that seem to outpace reason... but not demand. Short-sightedness by an industry that has reset it sights on 'new markets'. And an explosion of brands and models that defy mathematics. Still, it seems that each year brings another record sales figure, demand that outstrips supply, and the desire for profit that seems to necessitate exclusion of passionate watch people in exchange for speculators or on a positive note... new watch fanatics.
So it is like many other markets where new entrants (both buyers & suppliers) disrupt a once somewhat sleepy industry... the same could have been said about wine where the demand for 1st growths or top burgundies will never be satiated by limited supply but new world wines fill in the gaps. My feeling is similar to yours in that I've largely lost the 'fire' and have turned my attention to other pursuits. Still, I'll check out SIHH's new models but it would take something monumental, rationally priced, and available w/o chasing for me to buy something new. But in the end, I hope sanity prevails and these micro-machnes we call watches come back to reality.
OpC
"Felt" consent
Dear Steve,
I am no expert in the watch business nor in watch making, just a dedicated amateur attracted by these lovely little wrist marvels. I do not possess high-end watches like some of the folks around here, just plain, simple timepieces. So I cannot judge your statement on a rational basis, but my "tummy" tells me you hit some real issues.
1. Prices: really exploding (even in the medium range sector like Omega, Rolex, Sinn, Stowa), but - hey - they can charge you only as much as the customers are willing to pay. Obviously there are enough customers who (still?) can and will!
2. Sales channels: I only bought a VC at an AD with a very moderate courtesy once and lost a lot of money when selling the immaculate watch 3 years later. I will not do that again. So-called grey market dealers offer the same watches for better prices or a second-hand watch is an alternative.
3. "Soul": hard to grip intellectualy, isn´t it? So here I feel a bit more comfortable with my feelings. I am a fan of vintage Omegas which I simply prefer a lot to the contemporary ones: too big, too bulky, too impersonal, too expensive. The old ones are more decent, classic and my watchmaker tells me the movements´ quality of the 1950-1960s does not have to hide from modern Omega movements. Whatever co-axial escapement, silicium hairspring, column wheel control etc. may mean as a technical improvement, my vintage Seamaster with manual wind runs +10 secs a day and costed me only a fraction of these high-tech watches. The unobtrusiveness of these ancient watches is a main attribute that a lot of the current models seem to fear. They are crying for superlatives, records, first-in-history achievements which result in an "it-was-done-because-it-has-not-been-done-before attitude". Some things have never been done before - and nobody will ever miss them !
One thing stroke me when reading the comments to your post: those who obviously feed the boom - the Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Russians or whoever does not care about spending huge sums - do not seem to linger about this site, most people are from the traditional (and uninteresting?) old world, i.e. America, Western Europe. So probably we are discussing the topic, but it does not really matter in sales figures for the brands?
Kind regards and thanks for bringing up your points!
anaesdoc
I am no expert in the watch business nor in watch making, just a dedicated amateur attracted by these lovely little wrist marvels. I do not possess high-end watches like some of the folks around here, just plain, simple timepieces. So I cannot judge your statement on a rational basis, but my "tummy" tells me you hit some real issues.
1. Prices: really exploding (even in the medium range sector like Omega, Rolex, Sinn, Stowa), but - hey - they can charge you only as much as the customers are willing to pay. Obviously there are enough customers who (still?) can and will!
2. Sales channels: I only bought a VC at an AD with a very moderate courtesy once and lost a lot of money when selling the immaculate watch 3 years later. I will not do that again. So-called grey market dealers offer the same watches for better prices or a second-hand watch is an alternative.
3. "Soul": hard to grip intellectualy, isn´t it? So here I feel a bit more comfortable with my feelings
. I am a fan of vintage Omegas which I simply prefer a lot to the contemporary ones: too big, too bulky, too impersonal, too expensive. The old ones are more decent, classic and my watchmaker tells me the movements´ quality of the 1950-1960s does not have to hide from modern Omega movements. Whatever co-axial escapement, silicium hairspring, column wheel control etc. may mean as a technical improvement, my vintage Seamaster with manual wind runs +10 secs a day and costed me only a fraction of these high-tech watches. The unobtrusiveness of these ancient watches is a main attribute that a lot of the current models seem to fear. They are crying for superlatives, records, first-in-history achievements which result in an "it-was-done-because-it-has-not-been-done-before attitude". Some things have never been done before - and nobody will ever miss them ! One thing stroke me when reading the comments to your post: those who obviously feed the boom - the Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Russians or whoever does not care about spending huge sums - do not seem to linger about this site, most people are from the traditional (and uninteresting?) old world, i.e. America, Western Europe. So probably we are discussing the topic, but it does not really matter in sales figures for the brands?
Kind regards and thanks for bringing up your points!
anaesdoc
Fantastic reading.
I'm IN the watch industry, for five years now, and I have to agree with many of your comments and words.
This post gives me wings (even more) to go ahead with a new project I have had in mind for a very long time, thanks.
Best.
Vte
Same feeling with you
This message has been edited by Albert.J on 2012-01-17 11:58:39
My thoughts on price
i was very surprised at the price when i was new to watches.
what made me more surprised than the retail price was the rate of inflation and the period of inflation.
some of my favourite brands (im not sure about all other brands) has been raising the price 2~3times a year.
so as a result, an annual inflation rate of 5~20% for each models(at least in my country)
so what will be the price after 10 years?
maybe almost 5 to 10 times as expensive as Patek perpetual chrono as mentioned above(from $35,000 to $135,000)
it would have been possible to purchase a $35,000 watch 10 years ago.
but now it is almost as impossible to purchase $135,000 watch.
i think... something is wrong