Horological Meandering

A couple of your earlier posts rubbed people off the wrong way but I always thought that was never your intentions, you were just gaga over GF. 

I checked all the screws using a 10x loupe on Datograph Perpetual and can confirm that all the
screws heads are flat, beautifully polished and the slots bevelled. I did not find a single round headed screw. So Bernard I am not sure as to which model that your negative conclusion was based.

I also checked a Glashutte karee perpetual Cal.39 and can confirm that there are two round headed screws on the swan-neck adjuster. The slots are clean.

regds
narsi

I too discovered round-headed screws in the same position of my double swan necked PanoInverse. This message has been edited by amerix on 2014-08-11 11:44:26

Any longer.

Also, in those years when I worked for projects as a "consumer", it's a really fun job to see these movements.

The old purists from when the year this site migrated out of another, will recall my old responsibility, and why I had the leverage to change GPHG. Not something a journalist can do. I can't say more.

So, what u saw...is a watch that could have gone out into the market.

But round heads have no place in high horology, those are words quoted not by me, but by any student who attends watch school.

Round heads are functional, not according to me. But by the book. Why...there is a reason.

It's good to know.

Just like some people don't mind drinking the finest wine from a plastic cup....it's ok, but it is good to know, that it was not designed to deliver that way...the best of what it can offer.

I have plenty of round heads.

But my Langes are hot, damned accurate.

This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2014-08-11 18:46:33

Hello, Bernard,

as a disclaimer, you know my diplomatic skills are not well developed, so please forgive any sort of offensive tone in my posting!

I know a ot of people appreciate your contributions, while others are frequently troubled by some of the typical "investement" talks....
I've no trouble with these, I'm far away from beeing in the position to "invest" at all, so those parts only leave me cold, or shaking my head or
just laughing - entertaining sometimes.

You're an eloquent writer - and obviously many do enjoy your posts - but I'm sorry to say, that IMO your recent posting is just
giving a lot of wrong "information"  - I don't even know where to begin with.

Your simple "guidelines" for wrong and right,cheap and expensive might be funny for those who know better but as a
good "source of information" they're only nonsense.....

As I don't have a tight connection to this site anymore and also don't have the time on hand to answer in detail,
I stilll feel the urge to say that the conclusions the reader is lead to conclude are wrong....

I'm not sure why nobody  seems to feel the urge to respond the technical "information" in your posting - standing like this
it's a new low of shallowness.

Best regards
Suitbert

if you could kindly correct any wrong information provided by Bernard for the benefit of all readers here.

Your input would be much appreciated.

Regards

Ling

Above is the more detailed post.

There're a lot of things in this posting which IMHO are at least misleading, but I'll try to name a few more specifically.

First, rounded or flat screw heads - this are two different designs, but even Bernard is trying hard to suggest so - there's no
difference in quality just due to the shape of the head.
One can manufacture and finish a fillister head screw (cylindircal head, rounded) to the same degree as a typical flat head screw.
There're lot's of different traditions and culture in watchmaking and they all have some subtle details worth to be respected - screw designs are one of them.
Some of the finest finished marine chronometers or pocket watches are equipped with first class finished fillister head screws - according to Bernard
those should be of minor quality.

Just look at the pictures Magnus posted below, for good reasons you find rounded screw heads here or there differentiating a special screw
from the others - in the case of the P260 for example it's the setting lever screw, this is he one used to release the stem when the movement
is taken off the case for service.

There are other screws where it indeed makes sense to use a rounded head - but my main point here is - it doesn't make for a "cheap solution" in any regard.

Of course there are signs of quality and it's one reason horology is so much fun - but it's not that easy.
That's not more than cheap marketing technique - marketing loves to give nice black/white classifications - the famous column wheel for chronographs
for example comes to mind. Just say it's a column wheel chrono and it must be top quality.....sadly not true, but obviously does work.

I'm not sure I should coment on the handmade screws (with hand filed slots!) in GF watches.....or the "handmade" hour indexes....
When I visited GF years back - it was one of the companies with really good CNC equippement - and very good hand finishing, but the machine
part was huge.
There're other examples named in this post - and of course conclusions about future value added - now you know it's easy to spot by rounded screws

BTW, the two rounded screws in the GO movement swan neck are of good, nice quality, IMO. And good finish in this way is harde to achieve for rounded heads.
A flat head screw is relatively easy to finish to the same degree....

It's only scratching the surface, but I hope it does clarify a bit.

Best regards
Suitbert

Now, you provide a platform for readers to judge themselves of the accuracy of the information.

I tend to agree that the quality of a watch cannot be determined merely by a few screws.

Your input is much appreciated.

Regards
Ling

Suitberg wrote>>>"it does not make for a cheap solution at any price"

His words should be>>at certain prices.

He made a sweeping statement.

He forgot to mention" it is very hard to use flat heads because the insertion of the driver may and often scratches the screw head, and also the round head, if you misstep, your driver will only touch the circumference, and not more because of geometry.

Suitberg is entitled and so are you, to disagree.

But...please do not confuse people.

Be specific.

I am sorry to use this tone of voice. You will notice that Suitberg is challenging Papi at AP R&P in his words.

If you read the post up at the top, Papi signed off about the screws and choices.

For some reason, I noted a negative feeling about what I disclosed...from you.

Nothing personal I hope.

I will not be returning to this thread.

I will not be reading.

It is taking time that I will share elsewhere...on this forum.

I do not hear one side version. In fact, my profession trains me not to hear one side version. I want to read more info and judge the truth by myself. You have your point but it does not mean that you are certainly right. Suitbert also has his point and he may not be 100% correct.

Don't read too much into the words. In fact, to be fair to you, I even invited Suitbert to clarify and give reason to his disagreement to your statements. I did not come to a conclusion your info is definitely inaccurate.

Simply, I am learning from two of you.

You are entitled to go anywhere you like and you feel comfortable.

Regards
Ling

Oh ok. I am wrong to have said that. I am sincere. My apologies and I hope you forgive me.

I also overreacted because I read your comment just after. Spending over an hour to set a drip on a baby from a poor family, and I charged them $2. My partner in room 2 went to adjust my low charge to $120 !!! I was in a furious mood. And I really chewed everyone up!

Sorry.

just a few words - I don't "challenge" Mr. Papi and if I ever get the chance I'd be curious to hear his take about a more specific question in that matter.

To my personal experience a fillister type screw might be easier to be polished to a certain degree - and a flat head might be harder
to polish in the first step, as it easier shows the imperfections an tiny scratches.
If done to a higher degree of finish - personally I've found it easier to get, let's say 5 matching flat head screws to a good level compared
to the same number of rounded head screws. Supposed one tries to achieve an equally good finish.

If that's the "challenging" you mean - I'd call it more a minor disagreement - but I'd not be surprised if in fact there isn't at all .

Besides that, the only thing Mr. Papi indeed says about Fillister head screws "they're uncommon in upscale horology " nowadays....and in another place he
admits they're "esthetically pleasing" - .that doesn't sound negative in the way you do suggest? Another quote he groups them together with the flat head screws as
the ones to use...?

Throwing extremely cheap unfinished screws in the same basket - and dismissing fillister head screws for the reason "they could confuse consumers" , sorry Bernard......:-(

BTW, the "slipping screw dirver" - there you're confusing me a bit. In high horology, or let's say in good watchmaking - a damaged screw is
replaced or reworked/polished - if on the outer circumgerence or the entire head - I don't see the difference. And under normal circumstances, the issue is either the bridge/plate is damaged due to the "slip" or the slot is "lipped" - which indeed is more easy with non bevelled slots - but the same when the slot is acurately finished.

Both surface geometries do have their difficulties, but IMHO there's little difference, if at all when done to the same degree.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken - you're also quoting my words incorrectly.

Best regards
Suitbert

This was a part of a discussion.

Still, the presence of poorly finished flats are rarely seen.

The poorly finished rounds are flourishing, and even getting to big brands.

There must be some one to speak up.

Watch makers should.

And it seems poorly finished round heads should be a red flag.

Good, well finished round heads...not at all.

I had this talk 6 years ago...with Franco Cologni during lunch.

And at UN with Rolf.

Not a problem...no issue.

Fake watches? There is a problem.

Above is the post.

First of all, in order to make a conclusive argument on the topic of intrinsic values of rounded vs. flat-headed screws it would be useful to discuss the production implications vis-a-vis each other (you only focus on the flat-headed screws), and then the respective functional merits of each design.

This message has been edited by Ornatus-Mundi on 2014-08-12 12:19:47

These are all good friends, including Daniels.

And they will agree.

I ill explain above.

So I guess... that's part of the issue what is being addressed here. what elements should a consumer of High End horology pay attention to, and when are corners being cut.

I missed this in my contemplations.

Sincerely...thank you.

There are some serious issues this has brought up.

Thanks.

You will see some changes.