Comments:
A major 2014 thread Oliver
Dear Oliver,
I imagine the time you spend preparing your fantastic posts and this is a thank you we can give to all Purists moderators.
I looked at
all the pictures of your post before reading the text and thought that many of
them were unknown to me. You really have an amazing treasure chest of pictures
and experience to share and I imagine the amount of time needed to formalize
them on the forum.
In link with your thoughts and bad experience, finishing
has really become more and more clearly one of the most important criteria for
me (with the mechanical mastery and of course the aesthetics). I'm able to see
more and more flaws I could find in some more traditional (and well known)
brands and it pushes me backward a little bit, especially when they claim to be
#1.
As you say, there is no global and unique rule and each of us has to do his homework in order to get the true value of what he buys.
Many of us here are having some thoughts about what are the deviations in the watch inustry and what is truth to the craftsmanship in the noble way.
If I had to select only one watch as my favorite in 2014 it could be the new chrono from De Bethune (in DB28 or DB29 mod), not only for the charming aesthetical side but mainly for the new interpretation of a chronograph complication.
Thanks again Oliver for your friendship on Pp and have a great relaxing en of year.
Cheers, Mark
Mark, people like you ...
are a very good reason to spend time here - at least for me. Thanks for your kind reply and interesting posts/replies in 2014!
The "new" DB chronographs are indeed superb. I think it was in 2006 when they introduced the first prototype "Maxichrono", but they haven´t been able to deliver a final product until this year. Still it is very impressive for such a small brand and I love both for what they are. But I also have to say, that only some very lucky ones will be able to afford even the "simple" one and this is bad news for most of us. I don´t blame them, but it gets more and more challenging to finance that kind of pieces ...
Best,
Oliver
The "new" DB chronographs are indeed superb. I think it was in 2006 when they introduced the first prototype "Maxichrono", but they haven´t been able to deliver a final product until this year. Still it is very impressive for such a small brand and I love both for what they are. But I also have to say, that only some very lucky ones will be able to afford even the "simple" one and this is bad news for most of us. I don´t blame them, but it gets more and more challenging to finance that kind of pieces ...
Best,
Oliver
We need to bring back some old school values:the product must be king!
Once upon a time,when the big groups didn t exist ,when the brands were almost all owned by an actual owner(if not a family member),you knew that the product itself needed to be good,not its packaging or worse how it was marketed.
In a new world,polluted by disposable values and product,the perception of luxury,craft,and actual value changed dramatically.
What it is perceived as top luxury ,it is not the objectively "better"product but the best marketed one.
We live in a world were talent and skills are rarely rewarded,people do not have time to stop and think,they want an easy purchase,they want to be told what to buy ,therefore the monstrosity of marketing set its roots deep in people minds.
Music,Art,Craft,Tailoring etc etc......more and more I see well marketed talentless individuals or products succeeding over talent,dedication,sacrifice.....
I shake my head all the time.
Thank you for the mention Oliver,you put a smile on my face as I was present in many of your pictures....the best ones???The ones where ,as you said,WE paid for our own dinners.....
All the best
Mo
Dear Mo, short reply: If I made you smile ...
it is just perfect.
We won´t change the world, but at least we can try to do our part
Best,
Oliver
We won´t change the world, but at least we can try to do our part
Best,
Oliver
wonderful post, Oliver
to cap of a very informative year - I greatly appreciated your posts and contributions. Sorry that you sound a bit "burnt out" to me, I hope that some days off over the holidays may restore your spirits.
Very interesting points about the big brands strategy. It must be a difficult balance act to try and sell luxury as a mass product - much marketing skill and the occasional sleight of hand are certainly required.
Best wishes for 2015
Andreas
"a difficult balance act to try and sell luxury as a mass product"
Most of the luxury groups have been very successful with that kind of products in the last years so and it needs a "special kind" of customers to do so.
One CEO of a luxury brand gave a speech about his "super luxury" products and he was not very nice about his customers, to say the least. He said they simply don´t care about the details of a luxury product as long as the show is amazing. Spent serious money on events and PR and you will be fine, but you can´t learn this at university. He also said that most of the owners of a Porsche 911 have no idea if the engine is at the back or in front ... Honestly I was (almost) speechless about that kind of arrogance.
Thanks, Andreas!
Oliver
PS: I will try to do my best to sound more relaxed
One CEO of a luxury brand gave a speech about his "super luxury" products and he was not very nice about his customers, to say the least. He said they simply don´t care about the details of a luxury product as long as the show is amazing. Spent serious money on events and PR and you will be fine, but you can´t learn this at university. He also said that most of the owners of a Porsche 911 have no idea if the engine is at the back or in front ... Honestly I was (almost) speechless about that kind of arrogance.
Thanks, Andreas!
Oliver
PS: I will try to do my best to sound more relaxed
It is an even more difficult balancing act . . .
. . . to sell mass product as legitimate luxury to an informed consumer, which, I believe, is the subtext of Oliver's missive.
Art
Art
Lovely post Oliver! THANK YOU
for your many detailed contributions to our Community. You are the real deal.
I wish you a happy and healthy 2015!
Michael, I have to disagree here.
WE are the deal here and I have not only the moderators in mind. PuristS (in general) are PuristS for a reason, but we have to work on this every single day - all of us, even the lurkers ;-)
Thanks a lot for you kind reply, Michael!
Oliver
Thanks a lot for you kind reply, Michael!
Oliver
Agree and disagree
Hi Oliver
Your post is very provocative. The question should really be "what do we value" in a watch. I think you are right on track in posing questions that lead to this ultimate question. But on the other hand, maybe you are suggesting some criteria that go off the mark.
One example: hand work. We all admire fine hand craft and certainly there are romantic notions associated with it. But the value of hand work depends upon where it is used. For example, anglage. There is ZERO substitute for hand applied anglage using a file. You can always spot a movement that has this type of anglage if you can see sharp exterior and interior angles on the components. Anglage using a touret....looks like an electric toothbrush is far less artisinal. And there are a lot of so called prestige watches with this type of anglage...and they noticeably lack sharp interior or exterior angles. Similarly hand applied guilloche done with a rose engine should be highly valued. Stamped faux guilloche is not the same and should be valued less.
But what about other components. Wheels for example. Some brands brag that they polish wheels by hand. That my friends is not a plus. Precision is lost that way. Or said another way, machine polishing of a wheel, properly done, yields a far superior component. I have yet to see a watch collector who talks about the quality of wheels and pinions or who even knows what elements define a quality wheel or pinion as opposed to a lower quality component. How many of you know about copper byrillium as a material for wheels that is far superior to either brass or german silver????
What about hand bent Breguet overcoils as opposed to a silicium spiral that is perfect, but made in an automated way. I cast my vote for the silicium every day of the week because it performs so much better: antimagnetic, far superior isochronism characteritics etc.
Should we care whether a case is hand polished or machine polished? For me it is a point of no difference. Indeed I love some of the wonderful ceramic cases now being produced and they are 100% machine made.
What about in-house movements? I think they are a huge plus, but being in-house is not the end of the story. What kind of in-house movement is it? For example some prestige brands still rely upon in-house movements that are not free sprung. So very few points for an in house movement that uses a raquette regulator.
What is clear is that a lot of the element that bestow real value to a watch are not well understood outside the circle of great watchmakers and movement constructors. But as a take away, let's not denounce technical advances that lead to better components. Let's not blindly applaud hand work. Instead let's look at the substance and look at the sub-categories of work before drawing conclusions.
Jeff
Jeff, your comments strike a very important chord for me
I would like to see efforts made to demonstrate and educate these very important topics and ultimately differentiators. Whether in local GTGs or at factory visits. Or shows e.g, the watchtime events. Recognizing posts here take a huge amount of time and effort, but a factory visit with a write up and pictorial done via a neutral moderator, would be another educational tool. Just my humble ramblings. Thanks for this excellent to this thread.
Best
Joe
I think it would be very difficult to get 'neutral information' through factory visits...
as those are usually arranged through press or marketing departments of the brands. They give you great insights into the inner workings of a manufacture, but without the experience of several such visits, without having read through topical literature and the like, one is left with what one has seen there.
Oliver just gave one great example of a visit where attendants were shown manually performed steps that in production however are clearly automatically done (and cynically admitted so after inquiry).
This is certainly not the rule, but it can happen like this.
Then there are brands who have a subset of watch all hand finished, and this is what they show at the factory tours. The workshops of the 'lesser' watches are not shown intensively (sometimes quite cleverly so, the high-end ateliers come first, people are fascinated, ask many questions, time is running and suddenly its lunch time or even almost end of the business day, and magically the workshops for the simple watches are deserted and there is 'nothing to see').
Both Oliver and myself had the privilege of talking to suppliers to the great brands. This is quite enlightening. There is clearly an ever-increasing trend to substitute hand-work with machine-work, and the tooling industry is answering this demand with machines that, in combination with concomitant construction revisions, enable that hand-work, if even needed, is reduced to a very last, very small step. Have you noticed the dominantly straight lines or perfectly circled cut outs of modern movements (with 3/4 plates probably being the epitome)? The reduced numbers of edges to be hand-finished? All these factors contribute to reduce hand-work and substitute with machine work where possible.
Then there is the Swatch Sistem51, entirely made by machines (ok, not high end at all). I am mentioning it here because the machines stem from a German tooling SME which also supplies the remainder of the industry with ultra-high precision tools that enable precisely what I wrote in the paragraph above.
And yes, even the highest end brands are equally 'guilty'.
Besides costs there is another reason: The watch industry is highly reliant on foreign labour. If you visit the brands you'll be surprised on how many French are working there. According to numbers of the Swiss watch industry federation, up to 40% of people employed in the industry are French. Now, the Swiss have voted to reduce immigration from the EU countries, potentially threatening the Swiss industry to cut short their labour force. Another reason reduce hand work further.
Furthermore, I also think watch events and shows, at the end of the day, live from the support of the brands, and thus tend to be not that critical towards their clients. In worse cases, its even not disclosed if there are supporting brands, so you don't know if what it presented is actually neutral.
Speaking of 'neutral moderators', I think you are at the right place here - don't you think?
Best,
Magnus
Neutral
"Speaking of 'neutral moderators', I think you are at the right place here - don't you think?".......I am not so sure about the neutrality anymore and I'll speak about myself I definitely avoid writing what I really feel for fear of being marginalized at best and at worse being banned. Anyways I come here to relax and have no skin in the game so it doesn't matter to me. But that doesn't mean I don't see what's going on, being on the Purists since 2002 I can see the changes.
S
All I can do for now ...
is to ask for your honest opinion, when you feel so. We only have a few rules here and most of the topics we should be able to discuss like gentlemen in an appropriate way. If you think it doesn´t work because of me (as a person), please do me a favour and send me a PM.
It only works if it is common sense here and at least we have to work on it, every day.
Thanks for your honest reply Salman!
Oliver
Pursuing integrity and perfection in an imperfect world.
It only works if it is common sense here and at least we have to work on it, every day.
Thanks for your honest reply Salman!
Oliver
I have the utmost...
respect for you and your ideas and would be happy to discuss any and all with you and many of the kind moderators here HOWEVER there are others with whom I would not be as comfortable at all since they command such a large and loyal following it would be pointless to have a discussion, the moment I would to disagree on a particular point 20 plus of them would gang up on me to prove me wrong and then there is the proverbial sword of banning or banishment. Stifles the whole process in my humble opinion.
Well Maybe its better to Let Sleeping Dogs Lie as they say. Keeps it all very bright and happy and civil without the negativity. Having said that if you can't address the negativity then how can you ever improve anything or be completely honest.
S
Once more ...
thanks for your honest reply, which is much appreciated.
Cordially,
Oliver
Cordially,
Oliver
Dear Salman
The very moment we can't speak our mind freely
is the saddest moment there is...for any community
I sincerely hope it hasn't come to that on PPro
Salaam
Damjan
Dear Damjan...
I agree but its been like that for a while so it is what it is. Why don't you try to talk about something you don't like about a watch, a company, a watchmaker, the way a watch company or retailer operates or behaves or things that make you angry or discuss future watches and plans in the pipeline which are under embargo or if you disagree with the powers to be on long standing members being banned or harassed for violating the TOS or question how neutral they are (meaning did they take helicopter rides paid for by a brand or not or were they taken on trips abroad by a brand or receive special discounts/gifts and access) and see how it goes , maybe I'll be surprised
, maybe I'll be surprised For me the above is not so important to be discussed with others so I guess I am in the clear LooooL
S
You obviously know much more than me :)
I can speak for myself and tell you that
I always tell if I like or not something
OK I'm simpleton and not man of wealth or power
so no one cares about my opinion
On the other hand if something is under embargo out of courtesy I would
not discuss it
Are you telling me that on PPro there is banned and harassed people list
helicopter rides and "goodies"?
Naively
Yours
D
No Buddy What do I know...
But don't worry about it, its like High School, there will always be different cliques, it wasn't always like that in a different place at a different time (sigh) but the good thing about high school is that after some time we all graduate and go on to bigger and better things
S
PS
Just between friends there is a "Naughty List", I stumbled across it one day some years ago, had to send an urgent PM to AT as it was accessible to the public. I sure hope I'm not on it now LoooooL
S
Is that list opens when you click on.....
Team Purists?
Now if there is such list am I on it?
Cheers
D
LooooL :-) No it is...
not the list when you open Team Purists Naughty Boy trying to get me into trouble tsk tsk ;-)
Naughty Boy trying to get me into trouble tsk tsk ;-)S
It's an eternal struggle, Salman, believe me!
Let me start with (once again) the PuristSPro philosophy of life:
"Pursuing integrity and perfection in an imperfect world."
There it is: 'pursuing' ... 'in an imperfect world'
We all here, 'simple' members as much as moderators, can only try to uphold our standards. Yes, there is failure, there is mishap, and there maybe (although I doubt it) even some self-serving intend.
All of the moderators here are amateurs. We are not professional watch journalists, we do not make a living out of writing for PPro. We are volunteers.
However, we are together with the other online resources, blogs and forums, 'conventional' watch journalists and the like. Quite a few of them are professionals.
This puts us in a difficult situation at times. No way PPro can compete with professional media (be it journals, blogs or fora) in terms of content volume (note: I did not say quality or the like) and timeliness of article creations. This is just not feasible.
Yet brands do not make a difference whether we are 'hobbyists' or professionals, they treat us alike. We are not bound to any brand, not even to the brand who's forum we moderate.
And this means we are bound to the same regulations, e.g. embargo dates, non-disclosure of future developments, and on the more pleasant side also press events. Let me tell you that I put great value in observing embargoes. This is what helps build good relations to the brands, and this is a crucial element for obtaining at time classified information (which might help in adding perspective). There is little value in disappointing your PR relation person just for the sake of shouting out 'I told you first about it'. That's short-sighted!
So if one of our moderators (but also any member) who is invited to a watch presentation, he/she of course also enjoys the standard press treatment - your proverbial helicopter ride (happened to my once in Monaco, but that was before my time at PPro, and I paid for the ride...), gala receptions etc.
For me as a merely watch enthusiast those events are nice (of course, who would complain) but at the same time also quite unsatisfying. The latter because one gets little information (or even hands-on experience) with what matters to me first: the watches.
Still, and me and several others of my moderator peers, make a point to the brands that PPro is independent and that we do not cheer-lead just because we were invited. We stress the fact that we make up our own minds and publish as we deem fit. Many appreciate, but some rather not...
This independence is a real great asset for me. I could not write about a watch if I am expected to praise it above ground. Simply not. I always try to find positive aspects (as negativity represents time badly spent), try to find out the intention behind a watch, maybe learn something more about a brand's philosophy.
On the topic of banning, yes this happens. We try to keep a cordial and friendly atmosphere here. Some people have problems with that, and they are not at the right place here. Some shill to commercial site or want to discuss fake, same thing.
But banning someone is always a last resort, and is usually beforehand discussed with our fellow moderators. It is also something I really want to avoid: if you ban you loose a member. I'd rather enlarge our audience!
So, to sum up: me and my colleagues (& often friends) try our best to live to to our ideals:
"Pursuing integrity and perfection in an imperfect world."
Its a daily struggle, but PPro for me (still) is unique in passion for fine watches, in the composition of its followers, in the cordial way we all share our passion and interact with each other (and sometimes fight!). This is the greatest value for me, and I am sure all put much energy so that this stays. At least, we try, and this is as much as it goes. If we discount our values, believe me, it would not make any sense for me to stay.
Salman, I am very appreciative regarding your post. If there is something you find that does not live up to all this above, I'd be happy if you could share it with me (or us). I sincerely hope you found my message helpful.
Cheers,
Magnus
Salman, my friend, what on earth are you alluding to?
Dear Salman,
We all change; that's life. Even when we make a conscious decision NOT to change, we still do.
That said, the site changes you are alluding to are anathema to me, as they are fundaments for the very reason for existence for this site.
Would you please share some specifics so either
1. We (the administrators and moderators for the site) can get a sanity check?
Or
2. We can clarify misunderstandings as the moderators have to deal with many issues not immediately obvious to general community members, including but not limited to trolls and trollish behaviour; community members with agendas; etc.
Cheers, and to a great 2015.
Its that time of Year Dr. T so forgive the ramblings of...
a overly nostalgic friend who wishes things were like they used to be where we'd have more of you around these parts and the type of people you would bring to the table and attract to the forums. Year in Review, 5 years in Review, a Decade in Review and then turning the other way and trying to ascertain and foresee things to come (a fools errand I know but I am a big fool) or at the very least prepare for it.
I wouldn't have brought it up if it wasn't an anathema to you and your principles from what I know of you but at the same time I am not so sure I want to open this can of worms unless it can be done with constructive results without making it personal. I hate drama and I am in no mood for it either. Of course I am also not privy to all the details but then again perception is just as important and so is community spirit and a sense of fair play. I also do not want to make this a negative thing, you know I only bring this up because I care for this place, our fellow Purists and want it to grow and be better.
I do agree with you change is inevitable and on the contrary we are supposed to thrive in it and revel in it and so on but that is when it comes to work, I come here to relax and be with like minded people, I don't like change when it comes to my hobby, watches in itself as a tool is undergoing changes yes but is fundamentally the same and naively would want the Purists to retain its core values and atmosphere.....the values maybe we can restore but the atmosphere and spirit in which things were done.....that I am not so sure can be recovered,,,it might be too late and that is what makes me really sad.
I live in Kuwait, no one knows who Vianney Halter is or Kari Voutilainen, so there is no place like Home for me to be able to discuss and share about the things I love. So when I see some of those people leaving who made this all fun for me, regardless, it is really sad for me. When I ask them the reasons and they tell me things have changed, the atmosphere has become that of a mutual admiration society on one end and a high school locker room on the other with bullying involved. Perhaps its the inner nerd in me as well, high school was not a good time for me, couldn't wait to get out, so the counter argument is participate more and add more value in order to attract more like minded individuals, I understand that argument but I really don't have the resources, time and expertise to do that but there are others who do but they're falling by the way side. I do try to contribute in the little way I can. So more and more our general discussion is dominated by a particular clique and its cohorts and having a discussion with them is futile unless you want to get a couple of hard knocks and rude behavior along the way. I don't mind hard knocks but I don't come here for that sort of behavior and expect a higher standard of behavior.
I'll stop my ramblings, I wish You and Yours the Very Best for 2015, I also want to take this opportunity to remind you that I have not forgotten your kindness, wisdom, the education you gave me, open heartedness and will always cherish your friendship and our good times together and want to sincerely Thank You for giving me a Home Away from Home.
S
This message has been edited by SALMANQ8 on 2015-01-02 22:01:44
Salman, thank you.
Thank you taking the time;
Thank you for your candor;
Thank you for your compliments;
And thank you for caring.
Don't give up on us yet;
I haven't.
Maybe see you in Feb...
"Your post is very provocative."
Jeff, my intention was not to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. Still it helped to get your view and some serious details/insights, which I appreciate once more. You don´t join us that often here and most of the time only for sending a message. Always liked our discussions, even when we differ. It is always good to get more than one view only.
"hand work" and "in-house" - I agree (once more) we have to differentiate carefully and therefore we need knowledge. Some time ago a watchmaker (it doesn´t matter here who he was) posted something on Facebook and it came to my mind when I was reading your reply:
When we first met (more than ten years ago), I was a beginner - even when I started reading watch magazines years before. To get the hazard status took me lots of time and it was not cheap ;-) To reach the expert status is probably the most challenging part, if you are not part of the industry. You need to see factories, you need to talk to people working on and with watches, you need to read a lot, you need discussions with passionate (passionate about the same topic) people, you need quite some money to make it happen (even travelling can be expensive), you need a patient family ... I will stop here.
The entertaining and pleasing "Disney World" you get shown more often these days, doesn´t help that much here. At the best you see a factory from inside, but quite often you don´t get shown the "real thing". They bring you to some very impressive departments with outstanding people and skills shown, but quite often you are not able to see where your own watch was produced as it doesn´t happen in the same place.
Sidenote: It is interesting to see the growing business around factory visits around Geneva and Dresden - VIP shuttles, tourist guides, event agencies, fancy dining places ...
People like me/us asking and demanding are not born like this, as we are a "creature" of the industry and their people - more or less, good or bad. Quite often brand/marketing people are seriously confused if I ask for more content instead of food, champagne or things like this.
Sidenote: Me and Magnus attended a press meeting dedicated to novelties at a brand you are very close to and it was only me and Magnus who asked to see and to handle the watches. All others so called "journalists" just asked (more or less) for "goodies" and didn´t even ask questions about the watches. I know it is hard to please everybody ;-)
That´s all for now, but I am looking forward to further discussions with you and with fellow passionated people addicted to watches.
Cordially, Oliver
PS: Just one more snapshot with the accompanying text which came with the chart from above ...
"hand work" and "in-house" - I agree (once more) we have to differentiate carefully and therefore we need knowledge. Some time ago a watchmaker (it doesn´t matter here who he was) posted something on Facebook and it came to my mind when I was reading your reply:
When we first met (more than ten years ago), I was a beginner - even when I started reading watch magazines years before. To get the hazard status took me lots of time and it was not cheap ;-) To reach the expert status is probably the most challenging part, if you are not part of the industry. You need to see factories, you need to talk to people working on and with watches, you need to read a lot, you need discussions with passionate (passionate about the same topic) people, you need quite some money to make it happen (even travelling can be expensive), you need a patient family ... I will stop here.
The entertaining and pleasing "Disney World" you get shown more often these days, doesn´t help that much here. At the best you see a factory from inside, but quite often you don´t get shown the "real thing". They bring you to some very impressive departments with outstanding people and skills shown, but quite often you are not able to see where your own watch was produced as it doesn´t happen in the same place.
Sidenote: It is interesting to see the growing business around factory visits around Geneva and Dresden - VIP shuttles, tourist guides, event agencies, fancy dining places ...
People like me/us asking and demanding are not born like this, as we are a "creature" of the industry and their people - more or less, good or bad. Quite often brand/marketing people are seriously confused if I ask for more content instead of food, champagne or things like this.
Sidenote: Me and Magnus attended a press meeting dedicated to novelties at a brand you are very close to and it was only me and Magnus who asked to see and to handle the watches. All others so called "journalists" just asked (more or less) for "goodies" and didn´t even ask questions about the watches. I know it is hard to please everybody ;-)
That´s all for now, but I am looking forward to further discussions with you and with fellow passionated people addicted to watches.
Cordially, Oliver
PS: Just one more snapshot with the accompanying text which came with the chart from above ...