Discussion
Mark in Paris initiates a thoughtful discussion on the Patek Philippe 5070 chronograph, exploring its historical context and enduring appeal. He delves into why this reference has achieved iconic status, considering its reception upon release versus its current desirability, and invites comparison with other Patek chronographs.
Some may bring forward that it is a good looking watch (as I do) but I think we maybe make a mistake here thinking it is the main reason why it is so successful. Every icon is to be considered in its context and, hence, in the subjective way we see, compare and judge things: the difference between intrinsic and relative values.
What was iconic once may lose that aura in another context or era. This is true in any artistic field too.
What we find looking much better today is the result of the influence of being in the presence of (or "exposed" to) elements over a long period.
Of course there are rules in aesthetics too, but I don't think that the watches we consider today as beautiful are "absolute" beauties.
Hence, there is room for opening to new designs.
In the same way, vintage is not always the reporting basis to consider if something is legitimate or looking nice.
In that regard, it is easy to understand how the introduction in 1998 of the 5070 was "coldly" perceived back then in comparison to previous references. It was really a new thing compared to other Patek's references. But it perfectly corresponded to the aesthetical context and evolution during that period, even until now. That's why it is so desirable today.
Remember also that Patek's chronographs have been launched in the 30's and 40's mainly. These references have known a very long period of production and, often, all remaining in the catalogue at the same time.
For instance:
- The 130 reference (first regular chronograph reference): from 1934 to at least late 40's
- The 530, 533: from late 30's to at least mid 50's
- The 1463 (first waterproof model): from 1940 to late 60's
- The 1579: from early 40's to at least early 60's
Nothing new was presented in terms of simple chronograph in the 70's and 80's.
Why do I mention this?
Well, it means that the first 5070 reference launched was quite a phenomenon and, being the new and only one at that time, the return of this complication that Patek masters so well, it is easier to understand why it has such a strong presence still today after the 5170 reference has been in the catalogue for around five years now. And, in that context, five years are nothing, we'll need much more time to appreciate it fully.
Not to mention, as we already said it before on Purists, that the 5070 didn't please Patek admirers at first. The appeal for this reference and the excitation today, came much later for the reasons I explained above.
Hence, the 5070 will still remain the chronograph of the rebirth of this complication ( classical chronograph-only Patek).
Furthermore, the way it was presented, in a big sized 42mm case (especially at that time) and quite daring style (which I like a lot by the way) compared to much rounder cases from the brand, make it quite unique and strengthens its legend.
(By the way, the "style" element is why I think the 5975's case is a future icon too)
Anyway, it is easy to understand that it is very hard for a new reference to take the helm. Especially when the style mainline of the new 5170 is a comeback to classical Patek aesthetics.
But I'll come back to this later with an article about the 5170 and why it should not be underestimated.
In my opinion, the 5070 is not as successful today only because of its characteristics (which are good of course) but also because it was the only and new one.
But I haven't talked about the calibers yet.
Many Patek fans have a soft spot for the Lemania based CH 27-70. Is it better finished than the new CH 29-535? Difficult to say ("six of one, half a dozen of the other" to me) and I have heard both opinions.
What is true is that on a technical basis, the new caliber is definitely an improvement and some of the new patented features remain simple and clever ideas: not necessarily more complicated just in the purpose to be so. The Lemania is a legend but the In-house 29-535 is the work of Patek's team. I like that.
The bigger size of the new movement is more impressive too. They have a very similar finishing (chamfering, beveling...), however everyone will have his own opinion on that matter of course.
As far as I'm concerned, I prefer by quite far the CH 29-535 as technical elements have a high priority in my list.
However, I'll stop here for now as we already talked about this matter in the 5070 versus 5170 thread (link at the begining of this thread).
Don't get me wrong, I love the 5070 and would really be happy to have one, a good watch is still a good watch and a bad one would not have had success anyway, but I thought there is an overestimation of this reference over the new 5170.
My aim here is not to say which one I (or we) prefer but just to say it is important to give time to the 5170 to blossom with an open mind. Anyway, time will do the job in the end 
Next time, an article about the 5170 and its place regarding Patek Philippe's history.
I'll be curious to see the way you wish to react to this, maybe you had personal examples in the past to share.
Thanks for reading
Cheers, Mark
The Patek Philippe Reference 130 is a significant chronograph model, notable for its classic design and the various configurations in which it was produced. While many examples feature a standard chronograph layout, specific iterations, such as those with split-seconds functionality, represent a higher echelon of horological complexity within the reference. The model is recognized for its balanced proportions and the legibility of its dial, making it a favored choice among collectors seeking vintage Patek Philippe chronographs.
This particular example of the Reference 130 is distinguished by its yellow gold case, measuring 33mm in diameter. It houses a manual-winding movement, typical for chronographs of its era, and is fitted with a crystal, likely acrylic or sapphire depending on the specific production period and any subsequent servicing. The case construction and movement finishing adhere to Patek Philippe's high standards for precision and durability.
Collector interest in the Reference 130 is driven by its historical importance as an early chronograph from the brand and the rarity of certain dial and complication variations. The presence of unique characteristics, such as Breguet numerals, specific dial signatures, or the absence of a tachymeter scale, can significantly influence its appeal. The reference appeals to those who appreciate the foundational designs of Patek Philippe's chronograph lineage.
Because they are thinking more about " mass production ", while the production of Lemania chrono movements by Patek was more, much more confidential. They had more time to better decorate it. The leaf hands, the case, the dial of the 5070 are much more my taste. Subjective, yes. The new movement may be technically superior to the Lemania. But the Lemania will stay stuck in my heart. When I think Patek, I think confidential. All the things which turn in more " massive " production, at that level
I see what you mean and I may agree with you about "taking more time" is a good thing. In the mean time, I hope you're are wrong about the way it may be taking today... As a 5070 owner you certainly live with this watch long enough to be compeltly "in phase" with it, of course for excellent reasons. I would just not agree about the "what's in the windows" matter you stated as this is still the youth of the 5170 and difficult to compare with a 15 years 5070 one. If we compare today's 5170 with th
Mark, first of al thanks for this post ... every time I see a new 5070 post my heart skips a beat :-) I want to add a few points We know more about the production numbers of the 5070. It was more or less 250 per year per color. Patek gave us that number in one of their Patek magazines. It was not a limited edition so not exactly 250 per year but production capacity limited it to more or less 250 per year I have no numbers about the 5170 but I'm sure it is A LOT more. On the other hand, productio
I cannot remember... Best, nicolas
no idea about the others
I can't deny 5170 is a nice PP for sure, but the one that talks to my heart, the one that brings emotion to me and has haunted my thoughts for long before I find the opportunity to pull the trigger is the 5070. And I did not hesitate for one second when I had a chance to do it in spite of the obvious financial effort that came with it... I'm a happy and lucky man, I'm mad about it ! Cheers, Mike
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