Bounce781
4731
Advice needed regarding legal status of a once-stolen watch (Germany)
Hi guys
Advice needed here for a somewhat complicated story. Please bear with me while I explain it.
1) I have recently sold a watch on eBay (no box/papers).
The new owner reached out to the manufacturer asking to service the watch and they said the watch is on their "stolen list". I am shocked and my buyer now wants a refund
2) I reached out to the person I bought it from in 2014 (also off eBay); who traced it to the person HE bought it from and it turns out that:
3) in 2013, This watch was bought in Switzerland from a second-hand Jewellery store and when that original buyer sent the watch in for a service the Manufacturer seized it as a "stolen item". The buyer protested and given that he bought the watch from a jewellery store in good faith, and the original owner from whom the watch was stolen from got insurance compensation the watch company relented and agreed that he was a new legal owner and serviced the watch.
(Swiss police were involved and the thief also was arrested.)
4) Happy ending then (2013) but apparently NOW, that same watch company refused to acknowledge the same watch as having a new legal owner and agree to service it.
WHAT DO I DO? DOESN'T THE FACT THAT THEY CLEARED THE WATCH AS HAVING A NEW LEGAL OWNER IN 2013 CARRY ON TO ALL FUTURE OWNERS? I can establish a complete chain of undisputed ownership since the original resolution.
I won't name the watch company as the case is still going on, but I will mention that the watch company is in Germany.
Any help or ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
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Advice needed regarding legal status of a once-stolen watch (Germany)
Hi guys Advice needed here for a somewhat complicated story. Please bear with me while I explain it. 1) I have recently sold a watch on eBay (no box/papers). The new owner reached out to the manufacturer asking to service the watch and they said the watch...
That indeed is a strange story...
... and since you ask I\'ll share my opinion: From my legal understanding the watch has become legal property of the insurance company that compensated the original owner. Unless they waived their ownership rights, it does not really matter how the watch ...
Thanks Henrik but
to my knowledge there has not been any other claims on the watch. The watch manufacturer and the Swiss police have investigated this in 2013, and had enough grounds to release the watch to the new owner (in 2013). What I don't understand is why NOW, the s...
Actually, you wrote the original owner has been compensated...
... by the insurer. Through compensation each insurance company worldwide assumes the ownership of the item in case it is found later on. That is simply the legal situation. Like others said, only contact with that insurer will clarify ownership rights. T...
Thanks for your thoughts.
If I had known nothing about the watch's history, I certainly have no problem refunding the buyer and "wearing this mistake". However, if it transpires the watch company knew this watch was stolen and had the opportunity to remove it from circulation (it ...
Fully understandable, and you should not be stuck with it...
... since you can prove the previous owners knew about it you can claim your money back yourself. The omission of not being open about the history of the watch can be defined as so serious that the contract becomes invalid and reimbursement can be claimed...
Thanks. It is a very k pleasant situation and as you say - a warning to others
I will write this up for one of the forums once I know how this situation plays out. Definitely an "eye opener" for me
I believe Henrik has nailed it.
But it is more complicated still. It seems that neither the owner who first learned of the the theft upon the attempted service, and the Brand, did not notify the Insurer, or the status of this watch would be definitively settled. The Insurer has a claim,...
Thanks, Padj
There is no claim from the insurance company. I have no explanation why the same watch company doesn't acknowledge their own decision from 2013. All the are saying is: "The watch was stolen, and we will not service it". But they investigated this in 2013 ...
Refund the buyer and keep the watch.....
write a few letters and try to sort it out over time. Keep all gathered information. I hope that helps Bounce781. Best regards Edward
On the second thought Bounce781....
The stories about the previous happenings with your watch may be fabricated, like they say: "Paper will take anything" . It is easy to produce false email . That could be the reason the factory never absolved the watch. I hope you come to peace. Best Edwa...
Thanks, Edward. Very frustrating situation.
Yes, currently trying to work this situation out. The company is stone-walling but I am sure the situation is as described (i.e. in 2013, watch was investigated by the manufacturer, swiss police and AD. The watch was returned to the buyer with the approva...
Can confirm...
Contents of the emails have been corroborated with the parties involved, who have a direct relationship with the maker in question. The matter is extremely frustrating, and any attempts to reason have been shot down with little to no explanation. (I`m the...
I am so sorry gentlemen....
I hope that with some patience the issue will come to a happy conclusion. I wish both of you the best of luck. Best regards Edward
Whilst Henrik is correct, assuming Switzerland operates like the rest of the world (I’m aware the Netherlands has something, but that could be just for personal sales rather than commercial), but...
I would query the current status from the insurers first. If the police caught and successfully prosecuted an individual, the watch would’ve been retained as evidence and should’ve been returned to the insurers – unless they secured reimbursement from the...
Thanks PJ S
The insurer is not involved. My understanding is that all this was sorted back in 2013. If now, the watch company is saying that they made the wrong call, I believe that I (as a later owner of the watch) should be compensated since the watch company allow...
Without an official statement, the manufacturer could be unwilling to change their stance – so you might have to involve the insurers in order to have the matter resolved once and for all.
If you want to provide me with all the info, I’d be more than happy to speak with the manufacturer to see what I can do for you.
Thanks PJ S - it's a very kind offer
I am currently waiting to hear back from the watch manufacturer. I sent them a long letter with all my evidence of their previous involvement. We'll see where it gets us.
I suspect any sabre rattling to ensure common sense remains common, will be moot after having received your letter and evidence.
Still willing to try, but I think you’d be best to get in touch with the insurers now, and obtain written confirmation that they were the insurers of the item at the time of its theft, and subsequently no longer have any claim to it. Your local branch/HQ ...
Sorry to hear this! Do you know the name of the insurance company? And if not, then...
... do you know if anyone (other than the original owner) knows the name of the insurance company? I couldn't tell from this thread if the insurance company's name is known by anyone involved other than the original owner, who might not have ever disclose...
I think for starters you should refund the buyer
If we put ourselves in his shoes, that is only fair. After that, you can get it sorted out and find another buyer after. Good luck with it.
Have you obtained an official copy of the police report?
Police document everything, and I\'m sure the Swiss police more assiduously than most. The report should include the disposition of the evidence. I\'m detecting a fabrication by the original jewelry store, who has already (by their own admission, even if ...
Hi rick
I don\'t have official police reports. The case was handled 2 owners ago (not me, not the guy I bought the watch from m, but the guy HE bought it from - if you know what I mean). My frustration is that the original evidence was presented to the watch comp...
