priscilla
4
Socialism meets watch collecting
No, I enjoyed your post, which refreshingly infuses watch collecting - an entirely self-centered obsession - with socialistic ideas. Anthony seems to hum The Internationale since he read your lines too.
You're a good guy. You cannot understand the Paneristi, and their obsession with this strange brand, yet you keep an eye out for the undermined, selflessly patrolling through watch forums.
Maybe you are indeed on to something here. All those who cannot afford
Vintage Panerais shall go right ahead and create their own fake pieces
at their hearts content.
Maybe Vintage Panerai collectors are bad people. They are evidently wealthy and their despicable wealth even increased when the value of their possessions moved from 3 or 4 to 6-digit numbers. Shame on them!
Still, it would have been refreshing, had you once commented on the issue at stake. The description of a process to create a non-original watch gives the wrong signal. It blurs the line between illegal fakes and a true collectors items. That is my issue. I am not trying to revolutionize, I am not saying that watch collecting has anything to do with philanthropy or that expensive watches are not bought out of pure vanity.
Guille's actions are not good for any watch collector who pays top dollar for a genuine product. The production of fake watches, may it be done in whichever spirit, will undermine the value of her or his genuine watch. It affects every single collector - perhaps not you, No.
You did not like my words, but then enjoyed writing plenty of your own. Socialism and vanity is an invogurating mix!
And now ...
Arise, wretched of the earth
Arise, convicts of hunger
Reason thunders in its crater
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us wipe the slate clean
Masses, slaves, arise, arise
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all
|: This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race :|
....
Awesome
Is it just me, or does it look like the dial is not straight since the 9 and 3 are not parallel with the "Radiomir Panerai" writing? - AT
Sorry Guille, but lately I find your posts quite offending :(
I am trying to put it down in the most polite way I can because you are a mate and I know your intentions are 100% good, but the recent 203 post and now this post (and where it's heading) just shouts 'wrong' in my book. I am posting this publically and no...
Pile them up if it amuses you, but without histories they are worthless.
All I can say about those ‘homage’ 3646 to be, is that 3646 watches are nothing special apart from their valued histories. I guess project pieces are amusing and sometimes are the answers to frustrated individuals, but very often the hard work...
Well, that was certainly not the intention
I can see your point, and please know that it was not the intention. I have removed the photos. I ran into the opportunity of acquiring a genuine dial and it seemed a crime, to me, not to try to wear it. Reading your post makes me understand that I should...
Guille, with all my friendship,
The problem is to get an authentic dial, but only the dial... Then, it is true that you're walking on thin ice, between Fakes and Hommage. How can you complete an authentic dial with an authentic watch, and most of all, with an authentic Panerai Vintage? ...
Something to ponder...
Hi Nicolas, You wrote: "To me, Passion doesn't meet any acccomodation with Fakes, or Hommage... And it is very sensible, with Panerai, or any other brand with a real Past." To draw this debate into the automotive sphere, where does this philosophy leave t...
well said Asi
my thoughts as well on this. My opinion is, that everyone can do what he wants - building together pieces, of which some are genuine and some are not, is making a dangerous combination in my opinion... I could imagine that in some years such watches gets ...
Thanks Volker
You are right - If a collector is looking to buy a VINTAGE it seems to be getting very dangerous - What is VINTAGE and what is so-so vintage???? Angelo P
Being a "square" originalist....
I agree with you entirely. Matter of fact, these type of threads have been....banned....from another Panerai forum I frequent. Nothing wrong with..hobbies and passions...but there are websites the "hommage enthusiasts" can congregate in and share their......
Not sure I see what all the fuss
and "fake" references are about, the dial is real isn't it???? Should it just be kept in a drawer somewhere to never see the light of day??? Why not let this piece of history and the memory of the man/men that wore it live on???? Guille obviously isn't bu...
I'm kinda with on you on this
The whole modification (from what I can tell with deleted pix) seemed to come out of passion. As a car guy, the Ferrari analogy certainly rang true. Someone please educate me if I'm wrong on this.
Sorry, can I say something?
No intention of stirring the pot even more, but I can understand where Guille, Asi and Volker are coming from. Imho, they are the only people that should be commenting and since all that is needed to say has been said, nothing more should be added. Howeve...
wait a minute ...
I think every Panerai collector has a rather good reason to state his opinion about Guille's plan to create one or more fake Vintage Panerais. Let's please call it what it is! First and foremost, "Keller 3646" happens to be Ralf Ehlers, the co-author of t...
That's it, this place is sinking
if they let you in here,,,,,,,lol Thomas, hope all is well Cheers, Asi
Guille is a terrific person!
without any doubts! I think we all agree that those like posts should not be published. We are all saying the same things with different approaches. I earlier posted 'sometimes passion drives us to do wrong' and frustration is often the reason for some to...
I've been following this exchange for the past few days . . .
. . . and initially declined to comment because this is not my turf; as far as I'm concerned, the fascination Panerai holds for the true believers is the second greatest mystery in the universe, and I've long abandoned any hope of comprehending the depth ...
That is very well said Art
I've too purposely kept quiet in this thread because the vintage world is not and has never been something I've paid attention to, and so I've just kept my mouth shut with regards to this thread. However, I do feel exactly the same way as you have eloquen...
Socialism meets watch collecting
No, I enjoyed your post, which refreshingly infuses watch collecting - an entirely self-centered obsession - with socialistic ideas. Anthony seems to hum The Internationale since he read your lines too. You're a good guy. You cannot understand the Paneris...
Perhaps I shouldn't have been looking forward to your reply . . .
. . . but since you've decided to respond with a tissue of nonsense and bombast, a point-by-point retort is in order. First and foremost, application of the term "socialist" to this matter is beyond ridiculous. How government intervention in markets becam...
Have you said enough?
I won't fall into a provocation, I think I have said what I needed on this topic on and offline. I offered regrets for posting the photos out of respect for people I know who own vintage pieces, and for the admiration that I have for the watches themselve...
Too generous
Guille, Why are you rewarding such boorish, self-centred behavior with such generosity? As you have acquired the dial (assume legally), you are free to do with it as you wish. A. You can frame it for posterity. B. You can use it in any of your other watch...
I am willing to let him demonstrate that the principle matter
Is as important as he makes it be. Will he reach deep into his pocket for it? I doubt it, but I am willing to stand on my offer. If nobody gets this dial from me, then as you say I'm free to do with it as I choose.
I find this and any suggestion to hang the dial on a wall simply ridiculous
It's unbecoming that owners suggest that non-owners limit their enjoyment to a set of "approved/sanctioned" guidelines. Please, do not offer me more suggestions, it is extremely patronizing.
By all means I did not mean to patronize you in anyway! Sorry if it felt this way.!
Rest assure it was my first and my last suggestion to you. This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2009-06-22 08:49:06
Thanks, but I have no need for the dial
but others might have. Guille, for what it's worth, this was not meant to be an attack against you as a person and it sure saddens me, should you feel offended. Whatever you associate with socialism or "the undermined" (it's not all bad!!) has not been at...
First arrogance, then hysteria, and now cowardice . . .
. . . truly unbelievable. Guille picked up your glove, only to see you retreat. The issue at hand is not the sanctity of the vintage Panerai market, but your cavalier attacks on the judgement and motives of a person from afar without having the decency to...
My dear Art
you have a personal dislike of me from moment one, and I can tell you the feeling is 100% mutual. I expressed my feelings, like them or not , and while I might have made the final point in my first post with words that might be considered too strong by so...
ATTENTION 'Priscilla', PLEASE READ
Hello Priscilla, Please keep in mind our Code of Conduct: panerai.watchprosite.com that all members must abide by when posting: **Tone: Please keep the tone of the posts courteous and respectful. Think of this as a virtual cocktail or dinner party...
Let's take this one by one . . .
. . . starting with personal dislikes. There's nothing personal involved here, only matters of principle. Period. You, along with the rest of the community, can express your feelings and opinions as you wish. What you cannot do with impunity is to insult ...
I agree entirely Dr. No
it seems there seems there is a significant amount of self-interest and exclusion, even if it meant by some in a kind way. I would add that I think this is a trait found in a lot of vintage collectors, often to a lesser extent though.
I'm truly amazed this thread . . .
. . . is still generating replies after three years! No matter - your support is appreciated none the less. Gratified, Art
oooops
LOL I didn't look at the dates ... to me it was new or at least I couldn't remember :-) So who brought it up again ?
A sobering thread
Kinda puts things into better perspective, for me, if no one else. I'll probably lose those marbles again tomorrow but for tonight, a Panerai is just another watch.
aaah, so that's how is done?...
with an electric shaver?....pheew...thanx for the info....i'm going to start engraving all my hommage pieces now... ... cheers, adrian
OK, I've got to back Guille 100% on this!!!
Look, I'm becoming a bit peeved about all the rash remarks here. FOR EXAMPLE!!!! Volker commented about the bad taste of this post. I'm only using him as the example, not the scape goat. But, my observation then is this; the new book is great but why in t...
Wow is this really true?
I haven't checked out the new book yet, but if what you're saying is true, then all those people who had a cow about Guille's posting should be upset at Volker and Ralf as well IMO. Thanks for bringing this up Scott. - AT
My point in a nutshell
AT, you hit the nail square on the head. I don't intend to make waves, and I have not posted enough to do so, but Guille was being attacked pretty hard for showing so little. Yep, the book is without a doubt the best analysis of vintage Panerai but that c...
Guille, build the damn watch!!
Volker put the pics int he book cuz he is trying to sell the book to make money. Guille isn't looking to make any money, watches are his passion, build the damn watch!! And for the guy who said " Passion doesn't meet any acccomodation with Fakes, or Homma...
Bonati
I am surprised you guys havent called out angelo bonati for making the PAM372 and PAM390, it seems there are many elites on this forum who believe normal people shouldnt have nice things. Its hilarious how the monied elite will create new legal, ethical, ...
amusing :-)
I'm not a vintage collector so what I will say might sound stupid to those who want to pay hyper inflated prices And I have the feeling some guys get scared that it is unjustifiable that a 100K watch costed only 5K 15 years ago. It starts to look like som...
Good point Bruno. I have seen Pre V straps and buckles going for thousands of euros.
The rationale that some of them gave is that it would finalise the "missing" piece of the puzzle. I still don't understand the logic internally. cheers PAt
Layman question......
before one starts to reassemble...original...parts of a watch, on the way of making an "hommage" "fake" (call it whatever you like), shouldn't one contact Panerai, obtain some sort of authorization to proceed, lest some patents or copyright infringements ...
If all the parts used are original
I don't see how it could be called a "homage" or a "fake". If buy a 1970s Rolex 1675 case, dial hands etc, so long as all of the parts are original (and period) correct, how is the watch I make "fake" or "homage"? It would be indistinguishable from the th...
To close this story
To close this story, this genuine vintage dial went into a genuine vintage 3646 as a dial replacement. The genuine watch came thru a well known auction house and was itself validated by Vintage Panerai experts. It was a much more satisfying way to use the...