Automotive

One of the most consistent recurring themes in the follow up discussions to my recent spate of Quick Looks

click here for blog links to individual quick looks at: Bugatti Veyron; Ferrari FF; Porsche 991; Chevy Corvette 427 CE; Bentley GT V8; Audi S8:  

Click here for blog links to individual quick looks at: Aston Martin DB9, BMW M5, Maserati GranCabrio, Mercedes Benz AMG SL63, Ford Mustang 

 is the topic of "feel" and more importantly the seeming loss or perversion of it.

It would  be interesting to have a discussion on the subject of "feel" itself, and maybe get some engineering insights from the more tech savvy among us as to why this might be...

Le Bimb:

"I can imagine exactly what you mean, a 560 hp car that doesn't feel extremely quick even though it is ... that's the new trend it seems ... .

 

And interested in your comments on the direction BMW are taking. I got the new 335i when it was released in February. The Comfort setting is a little too floaty and the Sport settings are a little too firm without providing quite the same feedback as the previous model. I had a 325i before that and while I couldn't fiddle as much with suspension and drivetrain settings the basic setup of the whole car was better. But I am still happy with many other aspects of the new 3 series, so the change was generally positive. "

 

Thoughts or comments? Insights?

 

Cheers, and keep the rubber side down and the Smokey's out of your rear view mirror.

 

 

TM

 

They had less or even no driver aids so you drove using the feel through the seat of your pants.
Modern power steering is often too light so you lose the feel of what the front wheels are doing and suspension with adjustable settings often means there is no perfect overall setting.
My subaru has no adjustable settings and i find the suspension perfect, but the slightly later version has Si drive with comfort, sport and sport+, but there have been numerous complaints on the forums that they have ruined the comfort and handling of what was a near perfect car.
I appreciate cars have far more power now than they did, but that doesnt nessesarily improve the driving experience. Most of the power in modern cars is unusable in most circumstances, even 270 bhp in my subaru is far too much for me to put down on the road except in a few very rare minutes of brain out fun.

Give me rear wheel drive with no traction control and basic hydraulic power steering and i'm a happy man.

One of the best drivers cars ive ever driven would probably be a 1992 bmw 325 tds with manual gearbox. Yes it was diesel, but had a top speed of 136 mph. You could feel exactly what was happening through the steering wheel and your arse. Perfect!

G

Hi, Graham,

Interesting observation you made, one that is not obvious - the more driver seat "adjustadable" (maybe "selectable" is a more apt term?) suspension settings a car has, the likelihood the more "dead" and artificial the "feel" of the car.

hmmm...seems almost counter-intuitive.

Thanks, G.

TM

and I have never driven any of the cars in your list of quick looks, but from my probably very unusual perspective:

Outside of the usual "means of transport" that I have to drive from time to time, the only cars I have driven recently are the Lotus Elise and the Maserati Quattroporte.  You need to know that I don't need a car in any way, I have it only for fun and convenience.  You know that the Elise is my "daily drive" (daily means maybe 2 or 3 times a week).

The Executive Summary:
Elise - the driver is not only in control, but does the controlling in detail.
Maserati - the driver directs, but lets the automation in the vehicle do the work of controlling the car.


Of course Elise is more work to drive (and I know that I have built muscles in my arms and shoulders curving through the mountains) but there is satisfaction in having direct contact and being able to directly influence the world.  Feel that little steering wheel squirm in your hands when you are pushing things, grab it hard and make it do your bidding.  I can use those measly 136hp to the full, make the motor sing at full volume, feel the car get more and more anxious to run as the average rpm keeps going up, the last 3 gears are only about saving gasoline, I can speed on the highway in 3rd.   Jump on the brakes and the car just stops.  No quivering, body movement, no nothing - just waiting to be asked to run some more.  When it rains I turn on the wipers, when it is dark I turn on the lights, when I am cold I turn up the heat.

Compare that the the Maserati (I know this really isn't fair, but still)  In both my directions to the car and the cars response to me there is a layer of automation between me and the "real world".  I can hardly do anything myself.  I have no control.  It shifts for me when it wants.  The car lurches when braking hard.  It wallows over expansion joints.  The wipers and lights are turned on and off by unseen gremlins.  The car is more than 2 seconds faster to 100kmh, but I would never have guessed it.  Anxiously wanting to run? No way, despite all the horses under the hood.  Despite the wonderful sound the motor makes, fun is something else.

As for comfort, Elise does have a disadvantage when getting in and out, but once inside, at least for me, it is one of the most comfortable cars I have ever driven (I think they used a clone of me when designing the seats).  I get back aches on the couch in front of the TV and in the Maserati too.  But I don't think that is what you are talking about when you talk of "feel".

The way I see it is that the direct contact with and response from the real world makes the difference.  It may be a problem of our time, the insurance salesman's dream for always more protection, always more distance from reality.  Kids watch other kids playing on television instead of going out and playing themselves (in reality they might fall and take a scrape).

It is certainly true that with the weight and power of the super cars we do need to be protected from ourselves.  We are not professional drivers.  But that protection will always be reducing our direct contact with the world and the satisfaction that that gives.

The question then being what we want for the same level of safety:
- Big power and high weight, but little real world contact.
- Small power, low weight and lots of real world contact.

I am worried. My wife keeps talking about getting a dog, soon.  Elise is then too small.  But is an Evora not too heavy and overpowered?

Don


This message has been edited by DonCorson on 2012-11-23 14:07:21

drive well (ah, those fun days in Las Vegas and the karting session! Thanks, Chopard!) much appreciated.

"Elise - the driver is not only in control, but does the controlling in detail.
Maserati - the driver directs, but lets the automation in the vehicle do the work of controlling the car."

"Of course Elise is more work to drive (and I know that I have built muscles in my arms and shoulders curving through the mountains) but there is satisfaction in having direct contact and being able to directly influence the world."

"In both my directions to the car and the cars response to me there is a layer of automation between me and the "real world".  I can hardly do anything myself.  I have no control.  It shifts for me when it wants.  The car lurches when braking hard.  It wallows over expansion joints.  The wipers and lights are turned on and off by unseen gremlins.  The car is more than 2 seconds faster to 100kmh, but I would never have guessed it.  Anxiously wanting to run? No way, despite all the horses under the hood.  Despite the wonderful sound the motor makes, fun is something else."

All great comments, but this, to me, is most telling of all -

"The way I see it is that the direct contact with and response from the real world makes the difference.  It may be a problem of our time, the insurance salesman's dream for always more protection, always more distance from reality.  Kids watch other kids playing on television instead of going out and playing themselves (in reality they might fall and take a scrape)".

Thanks, Don.

TM

The most enjoyable car I've driven in the last 6 months was a '34 MG.
No synchro, tiny clutch travel, Very direct steering, cable brakes, cammy engine, super skinny tyres on lovely wire wheels.... just braking and dropping a gear required finesse...so much fun...

No message body

Thomas,

Cazalea

Hi, Mike,

To a certain extent, it is about preferences, which of course has a lot to do with what we cut our teeth on.

Two frequently repeated statements say as much -

"I seem to keep getting cars that were, or similar to, the cars of my youth."

"My girlfriends / boyfriends all seem to be very similar, and remind everyone of my mom / dad."

I wonder if the current generation, which will likely be the last generation to have paper as a significant part of the childhood, and likely most will never drive a stick shift, need to double clutch or know what it is to drive a car without traction control; I wonder who this generation will look back at this "transitional" period.

That said, I have to admit I've never had to hand crank the engine to start it or driven more than 400RWHP without some kind of factory build in traction control...no, wait, I have slip slided some 60's Hemi's and 427 side oilers, not to mention 440 magnums and six packs...can't say I have any special feelings for those cars...

So for me, I strongly feel I prefer no electronic nannies but I do like my horsepower, which is addicting and intoxicating. Whether it makes me feel like a stud or as close to what it feels like to use "controlled substances" (I don't, haven't, and don't plan do) I'm not sure.

Cheers,

TM

Last year i could try an Elise like Don's ... me and a friend just had a blast in the Clio Rs and a minute later i could take the steering wheel of his Elise ... The first minutes were difficult .... very very difficult, no powersteering made me realize my arm muscles were inexistent ... ... So after an hour drive i finally had the guts to drive the car at maybe 70 % ... and then my friend took me for a drive in this Elise at 90+ % .... (he really does know how to handle the wheel, more than most of my bike-crazy friends) ... .

I know i posted this pic a million times already ....

Most frightening drive of my life was probably being your passenger on that bend when the wheel met the wheel arch.

I think i would have more fun in mr b's vintage mini than in any car that i would actually buy to live with on a daily basis. Stripped out, basic. You feel everything through your hands and your arse. You can hear only the engine and know exactly when your on the limit so all you need are very minor adjustments to throttle and steering to keep it going full chat. I love old mini's and have owned 4 in total.

In the real world its nice to have a big engine, cruise, power everything and only use 50% of its capability, but every now and then it would be good to drive something small with less power, but to use 90% of its capability.

Lets face it. In a perfect world we all really need more than 1 car.

G

...and I say this as I have torn down the motor on my Renault Caravelle and completely going through the rear end suspension.
Just love the tactile experience with being able to tweak and modify these simple mechanicals to perform better.

I replaced the upper control arms on my erstwhile Giulia to convert it to positive camber...which got wound up for track days and hill-climbs. Plus adding an LSD off a 2000...polyurethane bushes....reinforcing the rear trailing arms...fiddling with roll bars...but never went with wider rims....
(Still a slow old thing but lots of fun, both the driving and getting my hands dirty)
The Giulietta has remained standard, playing about with that seems against its spirit...

why positive camber ? I thought a bit more negative camber would suit the track better to give a bigger contact tyre contact patch on bitumen when car corners at speed. Having said that I am totally against the insane over 1.5 degree ( 1 degree negative is max. for me ) negative camber mods. for the road which leads to tramlining.

"a track mod'ed" S2000 recently. It drove like a dream, up to the limit - very well planted, balanced. But it lost traction at much lower speeds, and felt light at the limits, than I would have expected given how it handled just below those limits, as well as compared to other S2000's I've driven (stock, lightly modified.)

Looking at the front tires, there was excessive inner shoulder wear relative to the outer shoulder.

To me, suspension set up is a black box / black art, would love to learn more!

TM

I typed it wrong. And the screen on my phone meant my proof reading went awry.
Should have read 'convert *from* positive camber'. I used to run about 1.5 on the road. And more on the track. These were 185/65 tyres, the high profile could take it. Not to mention that my springs weren't very stiff.
The only application I know of that benefits from positive is old racers like the Auto Unions. Where it was used to unstick the front to balance out the overseer. Only would help in relatively steady state cornering, though.

for clarifying. You are right , the amount of negative camber can be greater for higher aspect ratio tyres ( more rounded shoulders ). Interesting information about auto unions having positive camber to balance out oversteer from rear. The notorious rear swing axle on the auto unions with their extreme camber changes relative to each other.

Other old open wheelers did it, too. Next time you see one, have a look at how upright or splayed the fronts are.
I should have added that the Alfa standard camber was something like +0.5 which sounds wrong, but was probably a consequence of eve. narrower and taller crossplies as OE fitment and whatever compromises they needed for grip v low speed effort, etc.

Getting on a bit now, so my dream garage pretty much all comes from the 70's 

 

I am lucky enough to have a Giulia GTV 2000 from 1972.  No gizmos of any description and just so wonderful to drive.  The greatest thing about older cars is the lack of extreme width.   In the UK you can stay on your own side of the road but still indulge in racing lines and the odd tail out entertainment, most of it under any limits.  I think its tactility that matters most, the feel of the steering (you know exactly when understeer is about to happen) the bite and modulation of the brakes, that fantastic gearchange and of course the noise!

 

For a daily drive I have a C4 citroen with about the same claimed BHP (approx 130)  and again it is quite slim (for a modern car) and so still useable in the UK.  The 2 worst things on it are

1) the supposed auto wipers, which go mad at the slightest opportunity, and cannot be reprogrammed just so the stalk can be pressed for a single wipe. 

2) Stability control, this cuts the power to the front wheels when big differences in wheel speed occur.  In the UK all year we have had huge amounts of rain, if you hit a flood this happens every time.  So, you are driving along on power, wheel hits water, power goes.  As it's FWD this then acts as a front brake effect, which then is going to try and spin the car around, crazy!  Even pushing the throttle to the floor will not overide this (plus, in flood water, you want to maintain momentum)

 

The car is way less involving that the old stuff but I suppose the trade off (and the cause of all the weight increases) is that you might well walk away from a big accident, less likely in the Giulia.

 

As mentioned, you really need about 4 cars

 

A classic for pure fun (Giulia)

4x4 of some description (not a barge though) for the rubbish weather (LR Defender)

Some 70's supercar on max attack days (Countach, not wide arched though!)

A warm and comfortable car for those long boring motorway journeys (C4 works fine for this)

 

And of course a much bigger garage with 4 post ramps etc!!

 

Happy dreaming

 

Tim