Patek Philippe

Made me think about the Lemania V in-House comparison.
Being a vintage man at heart I’ve always been swayed towards the “old school” Pateks with their outsourced re-finished movements with the Geneva seal but have been recently seriously considering a 5270r and a 5170g with the Patek in-House movements and the patek seal.
I do also prefer the slightly more delicate proportions of the old school but could get away with a 5270 as the 5070 is on the larger side.

I’m not looking for reassurance one way or the other or which is better as we know where that ends up just really interested in hearing people’s opinion whom I respect greatly.
What are the pros and Cons of each, value and desirably aside just pure function and emotion.
Something as simple as the white Chrono hands for me are a significant feature and clearly some love the blackened features of the 5270p.
What do we love about these models? Is the later movement so much more technologically advanced on both models? If so does this matter?
I know this has probably been discussed before but we have now had time to live with the past and current models.
We all change our tastes and opinions over time. I for one wasn’t that taken with the 5070 at first but now couldn’t live without it.
Im not sure if it’s my imagination but with Rolex it seems to me that modern is slightly ahead of vintage in terms of popularity has anyone else noticed this and it seems to be heading the same way with Patek. Is this just a generation thing or is it simply supply and demand??? Lots of questions I know but I just feel change is afoot and there is a storm coming.
Hope this prompts some discussion.
M.

Lemania movements are no longer available and hence more collectible.

Yours is defiantly an opinion I value but that point aside what are the Pros and cons of each in your opinion??
What about the emotion?
Or is it just a case of simply which looks better on the individual’s wrist ???
I wasn’t trying to get a response about which is considered more desirable or less desirable just looking for qualities of each which make us purchase both ?
M.

5070 is more balanced because the sub-dials are aligned in the middle with the crown.

The 5270 sub-dials drop below the middle and the overall design is less symmetrical to me. Although the functionality of the new movement might be better than the lemania (a point which I will defer to others who know more about the technical aspects), symmetry to me is more important.

You are saying that like me your eyes and like for symmetry guide you ??
You’re not Virgo like me are you? 🙏🏼😉.

M.

very important to me !

M.

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The “old” Lemania movement has served many top tier brands for multiple generations. And it did it’s work flawless.

Later in some brands started modifying it to their own “true or false marketing driving” standards. After which “inhouse” became the buzz word.

But in my view nr doesn’t rule out the other. Both versions have their own appeal which makes it so grand.

And I agree with you.
I guess I am trying to prompt discussion which could help justify having both in a collection.
Are they significantly different to warrant purchase??
If so what are the significant differences?
M.

I don’t think there is a difference in warranty.

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I will try and be thorough but not carry on if possible.

I am a huge fan of the Lemania caliber 2310 (CH27 in Patek reference) as I think it is one of the most important manual winding chronograph movements ever made. It combines both precision, reliability, durability, etc...that has stood the test of time as well as passing the strictest of tests during the time, carried out by NASA (Omega 321). No other manual wind chronograph can make the same claims throughout it's history. So good in fact, that it was chosen as the base caliber for many of the finest manual wind chronographs of our era from Breguet, Longines, Omega, Patek, VC, and even Indies like Roth, Roger Dubuis, etc...

I actually have a sub-collection consisting of chronographs based on this Lemania 2310 caliber which should tell you how much I think of it 😉👍

If you wish to compare the Lemania based chronos to Pateks in-house chronos, I think it comes down to personal preference as doing so in a technical way makes little sense since the technical advantages are slight at best. There are other calibers from Lange, JLC, and Agenhor (Moser and Singer) that are technically superior to even Patek's in-house calibers.

As for modern vs vintage, Patek and Rolex differ a great deal here. Most people are afraid to delve into vintage Rolex due to so many fakes, modified pieces, lack of history and provenance, even Rolex themselves not wanting to identify or service their own vintage watches. This is a BIG obstacle for most. Then comes the rarity factor and finding certain models in top condition. I have corresponded with hundreds of collectors and enthusiasts about this and can say that these 2 factors are the most common to dissuade people with vintage Rolex.

As for vintage Patek, I would think the rarity and price points are the biggest barriers for entry. Unlike Rolex, Patek WILL archive and service any and all their vintage watches, albeit at a price. At least people who pursue vintage Patek can rest assured that they are getting what they pay for (no tricky business) and get it serviced by the manufacturer whenever necessary.

As for supply and demand for modern pieces, I think we all can agree on the effects of social media and why most of this is happening. No need to elaborate on that.

For me, the Lemania based chronographs are my favorites from Patek for a number of reasons. Some of the most beautiful chronographs ever made by Patek have had Lemania movements (1518, 2499, 3970, 5970, 5004, 5950, etc...). If I wanted to choose a technically superior manual winding chronograph movement, I wouldn't even look at Patek as explained above.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV 🤷‍♂️😉

Thank you for taking the time to consider and type your reply.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
So if you think the technological differences are slight at best it is all down to aesthetics preference you think along with the quality of the CH-27?
M.

Please remember that the Lemania CH27 movements came in the 5070 series of the late 90s - early 00s. But pressure was put on Patek by Lange with the movement in the Datograph so they had to try and compete technically, hence their "in-house" movement which debuted in the 5170 series. Regardless of this, the Lange calibre is still superior in quality, architecture, etc...

Current "in-house" calibers are also produced in higher number due to production capabilities while the Lemania caliber was limited due to availability.

Again, it comes down to what you like and what you want 😉👍

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However, both the 1518 and 2499 were based on the Valjoux 13Q

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I was also reading too quickly and my brain was trailing behind.
🙏🏼.
M.

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that it is the most obtainable patek chronograph on the market (maybe on par with 5960), even though it is discontinued, features breguet numerals and houses an in-house Patek chronograph movement, feels off imho. It is a reference I am having my eye on as well.

I do think the proportions of the 5170 are great along with the Breguet numerals.
M.

Miles if I would have these two, I would hardly need any other watches at all. And other chronos such as 5170 chrono QP such as 5270 less than anything else. To me it is redundant with the ones you have, in less attractive iterations since you have the two best ones imho.

And you will be the first to know when that day comes.
But why do you think like this?
Is it based purely on your eyes or the feeling they evoke?
M.

The only thing I am saying is I could possibly understand one who does not own yet any PP chrono or chrono PC to consider buying these (even if I would personally prefer considering a 5070G and/or a 5970 in any metal for pure aesthetic reasons) but if I would be lucky enough to own the two ones that you have, then I would look at no other one because I consider 5170 and 5270 redundant at a lower level than yours.

And I get you 100%.
Thank you for your input and honest comments.
Have a great day.
M.

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M.