Patek Philippe

Hi every one .. this is the second time i post here.. the first time i enquired about a 5970 that i was going to purchase but i ended up buying a Rolex Big Crown :-P    ,,  but this time NO Rolex its definitely a patek 3970 ,i came across two UNBELIEVABLY attractive pateks today a 3970R white dial and another in platinum ,black dial.. and i'm in love,  so i thought before taking the next step i should ask the experts here about the reference 3970

how many generations are there in this reference?

how do i distinguish between these generations?

any advices before i buy , like are  there certain things i should look out for ??

thanks in advanced

Best Regards

Dana 

from Antiquorum:

Ref. 3970 It was once possible for astute collectors to acquire the rare Ref. 3970s for a fraction of its retail price. Since that time, however, several factors have contributed to a sudden and sharp (but not entirely surprising) rise in value for this watch. The Ref. 3970 is now truly considered a classic by collectors, following in the footsteps of its predecessors Ref. 1518, Ref. 2499, and Ref. 2499/100. They have become virtually unattainable to all but the wealthiest and most patient individuals. Obviously, the next best choice will be a Ref. 5970. Hopefully, this note will shed some light on the different variations of the Ref. 3970 and help to better define its value, while clearing up some misconceptions. The Series: One can distinguish three series in the production of Ref. 3970. We define a “series” by the variation in case designs or features, whereas we designate dial variations as being “first generation”, “second generation” ,and so on. As a general rule, the Ref. 3970 was produced in 18K white, rose, yellow gold, and platinum, with platinum being the rarest variation, therefore always the most expensive. The first series of Ref. 3970 featured the 36 mm. case with a snap-on case back. This particular model should be considered extremely rare since it was only produced in fewer than 100 examples from 1986. The second series of Ref. 3970 also featured the 36 mm. case, but with a solid screwed back. After the second series, Patek Philippe introduced the Ref. 3971, similar in design to the 3970 but with a sapphire crystal display screwed back. The company also received many special order requests to make the 3970 with an additional sapphire crystal display screwed back. The third series is known as Ref. 3970E (E stands for étanche which means waterproof) and was housed in the same 36 mm. case. Because of numerous special order requests, Patek Philippe took the opportunity to feature the 3970E with both a solid gold screwed back and a sapphire crystal display screwed back. This is probably the most common of the three series. The earliest examples of the first series of Ref. 3970/2 with 36 mm. case featured a gold bracelet fixed to the traditional case; subsequently an integrated bracelet was used. A small number of early Ref. 3970/2 watches were sold with a solid snap back. Such watches should be considered quite rare. The remainder of Ref. 3970/2 will be encountered with the more common screw back. Finally, in the first and second series, the watches were generally sold with tang buckles, whereas in the third series (Ref. 3970E), after 1997, a deployant buckle was added. The Dials : when Ref. 3970 was first introduced, Patek Philippe would occasionally accommodate a special customer’s request to order a custom dial. This often took place after the sale was concluded and resulted in some interesting and extremely rare case/dial combinations. As time went on, it became increasingly rare that the company accommodated requests for special dials. Consequently, any interesting or unusual dial variation can add tremendously to the value of the Ref. 3970 and Ref. 3971. Let us now examine the two generations of standard dials: The first generation dial of these references was offered in two-tone silver (very subtle) with bâton markers. Generally speaking, the printing will be lighter on earlier dials, and the numbers on the date wheel will feature a serif font. The dials may be variously described as satiné silver or opaline silver. The second generation dial is silver (not two-tone as in the first generation) and features the same bâton markers, but the font used on the dial will be slightly different, and the date wheel will be without serif. The third generation dial is silver, but with darker printing and triangular markers. The platinum and 18K white gold Ref. 3970s were also available with a black dial, and/or has diamond markers or white gold/platinum indices (the latter being much rarer). There are a very small number of ref. 3970’s in 18K yellow gold with silver diamond dials; such watches are extremely rare. Patek is also known to have produced diamond dials in both salmon and white. Again, Ref. 3970 with custom dials such as the ones described is exceptionally rare. Hands: during production of the Ref. 3970, the hands of the watch changed slightly. The earlier models (first generation) had leaf hands, whereas later models (second generation) had bâton hands. It is not known when this change took place. One extremely rare variation on the Ref. 3970 has been seen with dauphine hands. The Movements: Ref. 3970 was fitted with the 27-70 caliber throughout its entire production. Although there are no variations in the caliber itself, the number system did change during the mid 1990s when it went from a six digit serial number beginning with 875 to a seven digit serial number beginning with 304. Although it has less of an effect on value than dial or case variations, an earlier serial number is generally considered more desirable than a later one. This Ref. was no longer featured in the catalogues as of 2005.

That is very helpful

are there year range for series 1- 2- 3 ... ?

thanks Fabio

Best Regards

Dana

Here my 3970G second generation dial, feuille hands, baton index, large hallmarks on side. It was made and sold in 1991.

Second generation has movements with number 875xxx.

Fabio

This message has been edited by fabios on 2010-01-16 10:17:18

.

Second series of 3970 were accompanied by the older original mahogany fitted box with the vertical gold stripe like the one attached.

No message body

for this detail info

sometime ago, on "The History of Patek Philippe Perpetual Chronographs":

Here is the "3970" section of the article (hope it helps):

Cheers,

Arthur

Patek Philippe reference: 3970

 

Introduced in 1986 and ending in 2004.  The 3970 went through various iterations throughout its 19 year run.  Case metals came in yellow, rose, white and platinum.  For sake of simplicity, I have categorized the 3970 into three series, although a case can be made for 5 series to incorporate the 3971 and 3970/2. The 3970 measures 36mm, and is very much an elegant and dressy chrono/perpetual.  Movement is the CH 27-70Q,  23 jewels, Lemania based, manually wound.

 

 

 1^st series: 1986

 

The first series is characterized by its stunning two-tone dial, and lighter printing, with serif font on the date wheel and snap-back case.  It is estimated that only approx. 100 of these watches with these aforementioned features were produced.  The lovely feuille hands, originally found on the 3^rd series 2499, are present on this first series 3970.

 

 

 

 

2^nd series: 1987-1990 (approx.)

 

The case back on the 2^nd series was changed from the traditional snap back, to the screw-back case (water-resistant). The watch maintained its classic leaf hands, which made it visually quite similar to its processor; 2499 third series.

 

The suffix “E” designation signifies that the case was now water-resistant (E is an abbreviation for the French term etanche, which translates to water-proof).   The dial is no longer two tone.  Date wheel is now sans serif, printing is still light, all other dial details, including the leaf hands, and baton hour markers are the same as the first series 3970.

 

Sometime early in the 3970 production it is commonly understood that there were a number of clients that requested a sapphire case back, to see the beautiful Lemania based movement.  It was sometime early in the production run that Patek introduced the 3971, which is essentially identical to the 3970 2^nd series, but now fitted with a sapphire case back. Both these models appear to have been produced simultaneously.

 

Both these early 3970/3971 would have the following features:

 

1. Movement number 875XXX

2. 1^st series snap back, 2^nd series solid case back, sapphire for the 3971.

2. Feuille (Leaf) hands

3. Baton hour markers.

4. Slightly different font vs. the third series.

5. Smaller "older style" certificate of origin.

 

3^rd series: 1991- 1985:

 

3^rd series is considered the most common of the 3970 reference.  It came with baton hands, darker printing, triangle hour markers, solid and sapphire case backs, with silver, black and diamond dials.

 

 

 

3970 Production:

 

I’ve based my production estimates on the assumption that Patek used sequential serial numbers to their movements. 

3970 production commenced in 1986 and ended approx. 2004, total of 19 years.

3970, 1st series, 1986: (snap-back case, leaf hands, baton hour markers, two-tone dial)

-movement number 875000-875100 

3970-2nd series 1986-1991 (approx.): (leaf hands, baton hour markers, solid case back)

Movement: 875101-875999 (I found that later production 8759XX, seem to have some transitional details found on the third series, but that could also be a result of dial swaps??)

3970 3rd series 1991-2004: (baton hands, two case backs etc.)

Movement: 1991-1996 876XXX

and

Movement: 1996: 3045XX-346XXX+

Assuming that 90% of movement production was used for the 3970, and the remaining 10% of production for the two other Patek models, utilizing the same movement (reference: 3990+5020). It would be a reasonable to assume that total production of the 3970 is approx. 3600 pieces.

Again, the 1st series being the rarest; 100 pieces, followed by the 2nd series, approx. 850-900 pieces, and lastly the 3rd series at 2600.

If you estimate that there were approx. 500 Patek retailers, a rough calculation would equate to each retailer receiving approx. one 3970 every 2 years (210 pieces per year divided by 500 retailers).

This is not a fact, just a rough estimate.

 

Hi Arthur,

Thanks for giving us your study regarding 3970!

Actually as far as I know the latest movement number of 3970 is "304755X". So I guess that at least 4,550pieces of 27-70Q were produced.

If 90% of this particular movement were used for 3970, the total production would be over 4,000pieces.

Regards,

John

 

 

that is perfect information ,, and i guess that platinum was the rarest then came the Rose Gold and Yellow right?

thank you Arthur , truly well explained !! 

Best Regards

Dana

This message has been edited by Quan on 2010-01-16 19:57:20

 

 

 

Patek Philippe: History of Chronograph/Perpetual wrist watches: “

The Beauty of Mechanical Art”

 

                                                Written by: arolex: Arthur.

 

Patek Philippe has always been renowned for its unwavering commitment to quality, innovations and the creation of timeless elegant wrist watches.

 

During Patek Philippe long and respected history, the company has brought forth significant advancements to the horological world, with important patents that have had a profound impact on the evolution of watchmaking:

 

Brief History of Patek Philippe Patents:

 

1843/1861 Stem-winding systems

1863 Free mainspring

1881 Precision regulator

1889 Independent winding of two barrels

1902 Double chronograph

1949/1951 Gryromax balance wheel

1958 Stud fixture for balance spring

1959 Time-zone adjustment

1959 Helical-line display

1964/1968 Peripheral self-winding rotor

1977 Planetary self-winding rotor

1985 Date 0f Easter mechanism

1986 Secular perpetual calendar with retrograde indicator

1991 Patent instant date change

1996 Annual Calendar mechanism

1998 State of self-winding indicator

2005/2006 First silicon escape wheel for a Swiss lever escapement, and spiromax balance 

 

However, the one aspect that resonates , when one thinks of Patek Philippe, is the company’s long standing commitment to the art of incorporating high complications within the confines of the wristwatch. This pursuit of mechanical art is a Patek Philippe trade mark, it’s in the company’s DNA, so to speak..

 

I will briefly touch on Patek’s chronograph perpetual wristwatches, focusing primarily on series production models; 1518, 2499, 3970, and 5970.  I have purposely excluded the 1930’s ref. 130 chrono/perpetual, and other models that contained complications over and above the traditional chrono/perpetual ie: 1951 ref: 2571 (split second chrono/perpetual), and the ref: 3615, as these models were not serially produced, and in some cases were unique pieces.

 

Patek Philippe reference :1518:

 

 

 

 

 

The ref: 1518 was Patek Philippe first serial produced Chronograph Perpetual.  Regarded as a true classic, made from 1941- 1954, with a mere 281 examples produced.  Most were cased in yellow gold, rose being rare and only 4 known examples in stainless steel.

 

-First series with applied gold arabics numerals from 1941 to 1954

-Second series presented in 1942 with enameled hour indexes, the 12 in applied gold Arabic numerals.

-Third series with applied gold indexes, the 12 in applied gold Arabic numbers

-Fourth series with applied gold “Baton” indexes.

 

Thus far, all the examples that I have seen came with tachymeter dial. Movement; Cal: 13 (VZHC), 23 jewels, Valjoux based  , manually wound.

 

Measuring 35mm, the 1518 is considered somewhat small by today’s standards.  However, it actually appears larger then it’s empirical size, due primarily to the thin bezel, and beautiful oversized crown.  The oversized crown is not only functional, offering better grip for winding purposes, but also aestetically very pleasing, giving this classic vintage piece quite a bit of added visual presence.  In fact, I wish Patek would have continued with this detail with the 3970, and 5970, both of which have average sized crowns. 

 

This watch is truly beautiful, with perfect symmetry, lovely elongated lugs, calatrava case, and square chronograph pushers.  The Fueille hands are elegant, and the overall look is one of perfect blend of harmony and symmetry, a true gentleman’s chrono-perpetual.

 

Patek Philippe reference: 2499

 

 

 

 

 

 

Arguably, one of the best known and surely one of the most corvetted wristwatches of all time. 

 

  Produced from 1951 to 1985, very few with tachymeter, the majority in yellow gold, and some in pink and white gold. Production is estimated at 349 examples.  Movement;  Cal. 13 (VZHC), 23 jewels, Valjoux based, manually wound.

 

 

- First series from 1951 to circa 1960, square buttons, “feuille” hands, applied arabics  numerals, fluted lugs

 

- Second series square buttons, “Dauphine hands, applied indexes, the 12 in Arabic numerals.

 

- Third series, from 1960-1978, round buttons, crystal glass “Dauphine or feuille hands applied baton indexes

 

- Fourth series: from 1978 to 1985 2499/100, round buttons, sapphire crystals “ Dauphine  hands, applied “Baton” indexes.

 

- Very few with tachymeter scale, and only 3 known pieces with sapphire crystal back.

 

The 2499 is a visual tour de force.  With a case size measuring 37.5mm, the 2499 certainly commands a presence without being loud or ostentatious.  If I had to make one very small criticism, or wish, it would have been to have a screw back case. 

 

Anyway, I’m splitting hairs; it’s my all-time favorite chronograph perpetual, perhaps my favorite wristwatch of all time. 

 

 

Patek Philippe reference: 3970

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Introduced in 1986 and ending in 2004.  The 3970 went through various iterations throughout its 19 year run.  Case metals came in yellow, rose, white and platinum.  For sake of simplicity, I have categorized the 3970 into three series, although a case can be made for 5 series to incorporate the 3971 and 3970/2. The 3970 measures 36mm, and is very much an elegant and dressy chrono/perpetual.  Movement is the CH 27-70Q,  23 jewels, Lemania based, manually wound.

 

 

 1^st series: 1986

 

The first series is characterized by its stunning two-tone dial, and lighter printing, with serif font on the date wheel and snap-back case.  It is estimated that only approx. 100 of these watches with these aforementioned features were produced.  The lovely feuille hands, originally found on the 3^rd series 2499, are present on this first series 3970.

 

 

 

 

2^nd series: 1987-1990 (approx.)

 

The case back on the 2^nd series was changed from the traditional snap back, to the screw-back case (water-resistant). The watch maintained its classic leaf hands, which made it visually quite similar to its predecessor; 2499 3^rd series.

 

The suffix “E” designation signifies that the case was now water-resistant (E is an abbreviation for the French term etanche, which translates to water-proof).   The dial is no longer two tone.  Date wheel is now sans serif, printing is still light, all other dial details, including the leaf handsis commonly understood that there were a number of clients that requested a sapphire case back, to see the beautiful Lemania based movement.  It was sometime early in the production run that Patek introduced the 3971, which is essentially identical to the 3970 2^nd series, but now fitted with a sapphire case back. Both these models appear to have been produced simultaneously.

 

Both these early 3970/3971 would have the following features:

 

1. Movement number 875XXX

2. 1^st series snap back, 2^nd series solid case back, sapphire for the 3971.

2. Feuille (Leaf) hands

3. Baton hour markers.

4. Slightly different font vs. the third series.

5. Smaller "older style" certificate of origin.

 

3^rd series: 1991- 1985:

 

3^rd series is considered the most common of the 3970 reference.  It came with baton hands, darker printing, triangle hour markers, solid and sapphire case backs, with silver, black and diamond dials.

 

 

 

3970 Production:

 

I’ve based my production estimates on the assumption that Patek used sequential serial numbers to their movements. 

3970 production commenced in 1986 and ended approx. 2004, total of 19 years.

3970, 1st series, 1986: (snap-back case, leaf hands, baton hour markers, two-tone dial)

-movement number 875000-875100  

3970-2nd series 1986-1991 (approx.): (leaf hands, baton hour markers, solid case back)

Movement: 875101-875999 (I found that later production 8759XX, seem to have some transitional details found on the third series, but that could also be a result of dial swaps??)

3970 3rd series 1991-2004: (baton hands, two case backs etc.)

Movement: 1991-1996 876XXX

and

Movement: 1996: 3045XX-346XXX+

Assuming that 90% of movement production was used for the 3970, and the remaining 10% of production for the two other Patek models, utilizing the same movement (reference: 3990+5020). It would be a reasonable to assume that total production of the 3970 is approx. 3600 pieces.

Again, the 1st series being the rarest; 100 pieces, followed by the 2nd series, approx. 850-900 pieces, and lastly the 3rd series at 2600.

If you estimate that there were approx. 500 Patek retailers, a rough calculation would equate to each retailer receiving approx. one 3970 every 2 years (210 pieces per year divided by 500 retailers).

This is not a fact, just a rough estimate.

Patek Philippe reference 5970:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Introduced in Basel, in the spring of 2004,  this model was able to incorporate features of past Pateks, but now housed in a more modern case size. Measuring 40 mm, this watch definitely has a presence, but still remains sublime in its classic appearance.

 

The dial is borrowed from Patek’s “golden age” (very similar to the 1518) with a beautiful steely silver hue dial, feuille hands and tachymeter.  This model was immediately very well received and met with quite a bit of popularity amongst collectors, resulting in fairly long waiting lists. It houses the old style lemania based movement, caliber CH 27-70 Q, 23 jewels, Lemania based, manually wound.

 

A handsome watch,  that combines a modern vibe, with a touch of vintage.  Although the watch measures an impressive 40mm, it actually wears, and looks smaller.  I suspect this is due in part by it’s heavy, substantial case, wide bezel, and better diameter to height ratio then its predecessor; the 3970.

 

At time of this post, it appears that this model is no longer available for order.  If this is the case, it will have the shortest production run of any Patek chrono/perpetual: 2004-2007.  However, due to high demand, and the advances in the manufacturing process, it is expected to have a higher total production then its prior predecessors: reference: 1518, and 2499.  The exact total production may never be known. 

 

 

In conclusion:

 

These little mechanical wonders, produced by Patek, do not just tell time, measure elapsed time intervals, and account for leap years.  They are magnificent pieces of history from a manufacturer who prides itself in producing wristwatches that posses a timeless beauty, and elegance. They are in essence, beautiful.... “Mechanical Art”.

 

 

Copyright 2008

arolex, Arthur.

All rights reserved

 

 

Research documents and images:

 

Antiquorum, 1^st and 2^nd image + information on various series, and some production figures. 

Paul Boutros: 2499, 3971 (1^st, and 2^nd) image

Arolex: 3970 (2^nd) image, and 5970 images

Patek Philippe: Complicated Wrist Watches, Konemann

Patek Philippe Geneva, Huber & Banberry

Patek Philippe: 1990 sales brochure

 

soon I will edit some updated pics of the new kids ....3970r....2499 tiffany...

unfortunatly I'm a bad photographer but I'll try to do my best...

nt

what a great article!!!

THANK YOU truly for all the Help

and now i can say i made up my mined and its going to be the 3970R

its my first non rolex watch in my collection and i am soooooooo exited

i will definitely Post scans as soon as i get it,,

 Best Regards

Dana

nt

very nice !!!

 

 

Best Regards

Dana

I just looked at a 3970 PT sold in 1999 with black dial and baton markers. I was surprized that the only place a PT950 hallmark was found was on the solid case back and deployant buckle. The hallmarks on the lugs were crisp but no identifiable PT950. Is this standard for the model?