Patek Philippe

As forum members I do not know how much our collective voices mean to PP. Probably not much but I have to bring this subject up. 

We are all spending anywhere from $10,000 - $150,000 on our Pateks (I am excluding the minute repeaters here), yet we have no saying on how our watch looks like. For no sensible reason, we are at the mercy of the taste and wishes of 3-4 individuals at Patek HQ regarding how the next generation watches will look like. BTW this also true for other manufacturers as well. I am always annoyed that by cosmetic changes only, we are supposedly  offered a new watch. For example, PP last year introduced 5140P with a new blue dial and made such a big deal out of it. It has the same mechanism 240Q which is in 5140G, so what is the big deal here?  Why I cannot send my 5140G and have PP swap the case with platinum during a regular service and let me have the watch I really like to have - 5140P with white dial. Anyone with a CNC machine can fabricate the cases, so why are they so inflexible? Obviously, I do not mean to dramatically change the way the watch looks, as this will take away from the brand name recognition. But exchanging cases or dials for the same series? This should be standard procedure for all manufacturers.   

I can order a $100K Porsche with any color I want, in and out, auto or manual transmission etc, without damaging the Porsce name. If Porsche can customize my car, with greater production rates, why Patek does not do the same thing for me? When I send my watch to service, PP takes meticulous care of recording all the parts, condition etc. At that point, why not give the customer the option to change a dial or case?  (Note: In some very limited cases they do exchange dials!)

I think PP and other manufacturers are used to passive and indifferent customers - who are used to expecting changes only at the discretion of the manufacturers. And for the manufacturers cosmetic changes are easy. It is up to us to change the status quo, but I sure have no clue where to begin.

I sincerely hope that this forum will start something for the benefit of all of us.

Cheers Jim

 

I was totally sure that Patek does not change the dials to another type of dial...

I wanted to do one change and asked the issue from Patek\s Boutique in Paris / they said that probably not. Then I asked the same issue from Patek\s Boutique in London and they replied no way! And finally I went with the watch to Patek\s Boutique to Geneva,\ explained the issue and a very pleasant Lady said that she will have a try with the Manufacturer.

Some two weeks later I was informed that the movement of my watch is totally dry and it needs a service. The service department informed also that at the same time with the service they could change the dial and the hands and gave me a quotation. The costs were in my opinion reasonable and I ordered the job. My watch will be ready next week.

This is not the only case. Some six years I bought a Nautilus. The AD engraved my initials to the case back of the watch in a very rude way. I asked Patek if they could change the case back and again, I got a an offer for doing the same. My watch has been ready now for a month and I will pick it up together with the other watch.

I guess that in the case of Nautilus the reason was that I was the original owner and that the engraving was rude. The other watch I can\t explain.

But what I can say for sure is that Patek Philippe is much better and much more flexible than what their reputation would suggest.

Best, Kari

Patek is imo art ( so are Breguet, Lange, ...)

I mean not only Picasso , Van Gogh, Rodin, Michelangelo, Rietveld, ... made art. I really do prefer a Patek watch above a painting, a vase or a chair. To each his own I guess.

But when you say  : 'I can order a $100K Porsche with any color I want, in and out, auto or manual transmission etc, without damaging the Porsce name. If Porsche can customize my car, with greater production rates'  ......Well I don't think you van buy a famous painting, send it back to the person who made it and ask him if he can paint an extra tree on it  ;-)

You buy what you like and if you don't like it , than buy something else. Patek made exception for super clients like Graven and packard but that was long ago. I doubt they would still do it today. And if they would it woul't be for an entry level watch.

Thank you for your thoughts. But, I cannot disagree more with your comparison of Patek watches to the paintings of Picasso or any other art work. Art works are truly unique. Even if the artist wanted to make another copy, it will not be identical to the first one.  Watches - this includes Pateks - are micro-engineering achievements. Nothing more and nothing less. Today, anyone with CAD software and CNC machine can make precision mechanical watches and as many as they like. Looking at the watch landscape shows us many outstanding watchmakers today. We are just paying for the NAME of Patek. Just that we are paying much more than a Seiko does not make Patek's art. Please do not misunderstand me, I love Patek's understated lines and wear them every day. However, to me they are just watches that remind me how lucky I am to be able to afford them. Cheers Jim.  

Art is not always unique. Are Fabergé eggs art ? Yes they are and I think they made some series with eggs who all looked the same. Their toppieces are indeed unique. And what about photography ? It can be art too , right ?

Well I know somebody who takes great photos and of each photo they make 7 or 9 copies, each copy is sold for a very high price. Is that still art ? Imo it's pure perception and since thess haute horlogerie manufactures still put quite some handwork in their pieces I see them as art.

Besides , when I see some modern art I somethies get the impression 'Is this art ?? Man, a 10 year old kid can do better' So when you say that we only pay for the name Patek on the dial, I think this is the same case for a lot of other subjects others like to call art too

 

 

you experts correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't vc initiate a special program that would allow people to customize their their watches or participate in the design of a completely personal watch?

maybe the counter-argument is that it is different price range, but some companies do have these options.

chris

Indeed, VC allows to customize these watches but imo that is just a marketing gimmick.

"owners can customize their Vacheron Constantin Quai de l'Ile with 400 styles and deterrents, like the embedded invisible ink plastic slips that are placed beneath the watch face . If that sounds familiar, it's because some of the same techniques are used in paper currency."

This process doesn't imo make it a bespoken piece. In that case, every enamel dial Patek could be considered as a bespoken piece too because they are all hand made and no 2 watches will look exactly the same

Vacheron recently made two truly exceptional watches in its custom manufacturing program. I hate to think what they cost, but they are truly unique and spectacular. They were recently written up on our Vacheron forum.

I don't disagree with you regarding the "customization" of the Quai de l'Ile.

I think we cannot compare a Porsche to a Patek in this case. Wouldn't it be better to say the colour combination for a Porsche is limited to those on offer by the factory? Lambo and Aston Martin all have their own colour coding and it is limited. You would not be able to request a shocking pink Porsche from the manufacturer or maybe gamballa rims/bonnet or gearshift on a normal boxster. Same for trying to get AMG badging on your merc when it ain't tuned by AMG!
As said, I am sure Patek has their reasons. If they allow all customers to mix and match, imagine the case, dial, hands, font, indexes and the movements it would be a total dilution or insult to the brand!
Bottom line, if you didn't buy the sports package for your car, it ain't gonna come with the sports seats or badging!

the chances that Patek will take special orders today is close to none.  Those good ole days dont exsist anymore, the fact that Patek is already in maximum production, the concept of to accomodate things which isnt on the list is beyond Patek today.

surely there are exceptions, the fact that we are discussing this topic pretty much says , YOU & me are no where on their VVIP list.

by the way, when you raise this question, WHAT exactly do you wish patek to customized ?? care to share ?

 

 

 

as there was many years ago. I am amazed at how many choices there were 100 + years ago. However, I do not think manufacturers feel it is worth their effort to offer them. Unfortunately, businesses today are managed mostly for maximum short term return. It is going to take owners and managers who have a different set of values and goals, yet can mange a company successfully to buck this trend, in order to make true changes.

In the mean time: vote with your wallet and shop like a bargin hunter.

--

Richard.

Hello, Jim,
although I'm far away from beeing in the position to even think about ordering a bespoke piece - I've to admit I don't like the the approach of a (factory) customized product so much - beeing more  precise,  I almost hate it  ;-).
Of course this is just my very personal view,  but I happen to like some sort of  despotism in all esthetical, design or even artistic aspects.
I'm not sure if there are any examples of  a really good esthetic achievements, born from a democratic or comitee  decision, but I surely know about legions of
poor or mediocree ones.  I've all respect for a person or in case of PP a company, more or less generally  denying customization. In my oppinion
this isn't arrogant at all.  
I know that there are great examples of "customized" art (be it custom ordered or chchanged/modified on demand...etc) in history - but I also believe
that almost any of the creators would have preferred to "create" without relying and beeing dependent on those special customs "wishes".

So, I see this less as arrogance, instead it's more the luxury on the side of PP not beeing economically forced to  accept those wishes.  Maybe this will change sometime,
as it has been different in the past.

If one really likes to have a customized watch - why not having it done on his own. I.e. cooperate with an independent watchmaker and modify your PP....
of course this has it's own difficulties, but it isn't impossible.  And if you don't like the idea of having a "non original, non factory authorized modification" than, loosing "value" etc...., than also think about the advantages of PP beeing so strict with customization nowadays. Some of the well known names - all had their  economically poorer
periods and times when those customizations and modifications were quite wildly abused - not in favor for their standing economically, IMO.

Hope above doesn't offend anyone - certainly not intended and my personal oppinio only!
Best regards
Suitbert

Some before and after photos of the changes that Patek have made to you piece?

Also I am intrigued by what you meant, when you say that the AD inscribed something rude on the back of your Nautilus?

Regards

Tony

do agree that Patek should offer some level of flexibility with respect to some limited changes as they did not so long ago.

There are reasons to allow this, the one that comes to mind immediately is dial changes. There are times, for example, when you get older and can no longer read the dial easily. There have been references produced with several dial variations, the 3520D probably had the most optional dials of any other reference as I recall, but there were many other references like 3796, 5022, 3802, etc. which are no longer made which had numerous dial variations. Those folks who have a rose gold 3796 with the rose dial and hands may have a tough time reading the dial now and need a silvered dial (which was offered) instead. I see no reason to not accommodate a request like this so the owner can enjoy his watch for his lifetime.

So why is it so hard for Patek to make an accommodation if the client is more than willing to pay that cost? The explanation told to me was that since Patek's meteoric rise to fame and glory, they were very sensitive to folks attempting to create special ("rare") pieces from ordinary pieces, and exploit the market asking more insane prices than they already are. They wanted to eliminate such activity...except of course, those pieces they make.


Many people here buy Pateks based on their longevity, history, etc.  That history includes those special pieces (where the clients wishes were welcomed) which they proudly display in their museum and represent a time when Patek was truly Patek...doing things that others couldn't or wouldn't do to accommodate their clients.  And, it is precisely that history and reputation that attracts many people to the brand.  Then you experience the door being shut in your face when you want a simple dial change. It's an absurd policy. Someone responded that they were finally successful in getting a dial changed, but look what it took to get it done.


I could go on for hours about this as I have been passionate of Patek for many, many years, but it is the recent changes in their philosophy that I find to be very dis-heartening and disappointing from a company that I have admired for all the qualities that their reputation was built upon that are slowly being discarded evidently for the sake of production and sales.

I regretfully agree with your comments. Since the Patek name become globally recognizable via internet and this combined with rising emerging markets (e.g. BRICK) the Patek suddently faced with a quantum jump in demand and thus became too valuable (simple supply and demand). We are all paying for it through higher prices and lower flexibility and lower customer service. Certainly good for the Stern family. However, under these conditions, it will be impossible to expect good customer service in the foreseeable future. Good customer service is not about having a Patek rep. in NYC taking in your watch for repair/service and returning it after 6+ months and/or explaining to you why they cannot do this or they cannot do that (e.g. change dials) because of company policy. I guess I will have to learn to be a passive consumer and try to enjoy whatever Patek offers -nothing more nothing less. On a positive note, this makes my life easier knowing that I dont have to waste my time trying to talk to Patek service for anything other than regular service and repairs.

  

 

On the way to going broke, true to form after making my first "real" money, I took my wife to a Patek AD. I paid cash for "Ladies and Gents" two-tone Nautilus. They were identical models #3800/01JA and #4700/01JA. Their dials were ribbed gold with applied stick makers and sweeps. A few years latter, and older eyes, we decided we needed something different. Haveing aways maitained our watch at Sterns we inquired about a change of face the next time they went in for service. They returned a couple of months latter with different but identical faces, see poor old scans of mine. You will note that there was no charge for the change as Stern simply kept the old dials. Before you ask for current scans, please keep in mind: Those were the days my friend, I thought they would never end - they did! best to all, Miki

No message body

No message body

About 2 years ago, I got a great deal on a 3940 in yellow gold. I always admired that watch with the yellow gold (champagne) dial , mine of course had the standard, very often seen white dial. I called Patek in NYC, and asked if they could replace my "opaline" white dial with the gold one, and without pause, the gentleman in service said "absolutely". I sent the watch to Henri Stern Watch Agency and sure enough, I got my 3940 back with a beautiful gold dial.. They kept the original dial, (they told me beforehand that they would). Now my watch looks like one of the limited edition "Beyer" pieces. This dial-changing adventure set me back $3000.00. To me , it was worth it. I wear my 3940 every day and love it.