Comments:
From a practical perspective that should be carefully considered.
In terms of preference, I really like the 5070 series. But I find myself strongly preferring certain metals over others. I much prefer the white and yellow gold over the platinum and rose. Whereas with the 5970, every version is near perfection in my view. And rose is my favorite from an aesthetic point of view. For me, once I am at 100k+, I'm getting the 5970r. That's just me.
Thank you. And very good point regarding practicality of setting a manual perp calendar. Two questions that may take us off-topic:
1. Why can't you entirely trust auction prices....the fear that mr. Stern is doing the buying?
2. What are some issues with watch winders (assuming an automatic watch obviously)
Help! 5070p or 5790r?
Debating between these two beauties for my first Patek (starting off fairly aggressively). Both speak to me on the wrist. I can afford either but not both as the 5970 is approximately 30% more expensive. My other watches are a Breguet 3787 wg and Lange 1 moonphase. Help me think through this even though it's a very personal decision. While 99% of my watch buying is for pure enjoyment, there is a small element of "value", whatever that may mean. Thank you!
Winding and wearing habits
Although I don't recall seeing this discussed in the past, one practical issue you may want to consider is the time it takes to set the 5970 if you let it wind down. If you would leave it at home while traveling yet wanted to wear it each time you were home, this could become burdensome if you travel often. This, coupled with distrust of the wnders available for manual wind watches, has caused me to avoid manual perpertuals, at least until I only travel a few times a year.
Park
Park makes excellent points
From a practical perspective that should be carefully considered.
In terms of preference, I really like the 5070 series. But I find myself strongly preferring certain metals over others. I much prefer the white and yellow gold over the platinum and rose. Whereas with the 5970, every version is near perfection in my view. And rose is my favorite from an aesthetic point of view. For me, once I am at 100k+, I'm getting the 5970r. That's just me.
5070P is now on par with 5970
in terms of auction price in a recent auction in Hong Kong. Although you can't completely trust auction results, this will provide you a slight clue as to the "value". I will go for 5070p but the premium is just crazy. I totally agree with Park on the setting time on a perpetual, especially manual one. If you go for the 5970, you will end up leaving it in the safe and just take it out to enjoy its beauty once in a while. A 5070 on the other hand will really get you to put it on your wrist. I have the 5070J and 2 auto perpetuals (I do not put them on winder anymore) and the 5070 has a lot more wrist time on me.
....auctions and winders.....
Thank you. And very good point regarding practicality of setting a manual perp calendar. Two questions that may take us off-topic:
1. Why can't you entirely trust auction prices....the fear that mr. Stern is doing the buying?
2. What are some issues with watch winders (assuming an automatic watch obviously)
auction prices
have outlyers in statistics terms and sometime it is not easy to spot outlyers when the transaction vol is low. If we can get the "real" transaction prices of all second hand deals, that will be a perfect indication, but of course in real life, no such database exist. I believe you can use auction price as a reference but should not give it 100%.
With the winders, there are lots of debates that the clockwork should not be running 24/7, we should give it rest time (complete stop). This is regardless of how good your winder is (multi-directional and rotation per day adjustable). Occasional running of the cogs and wheels is good to keep the lubricant in good condition, just like keeping a car engine in good shape. Different people will tell you different stories, some will say watches are made to run non-stop to tell the time and you do not need to rest it. Do you have to service it more often? With modern day technology, the material used for the cogs and wheels may last for many many years, why do we have to worry about the wear and tear. Does it sound like a trick from the manufacturer to run and wear off your watch so you need to bring it back for service earlier? Perhaps experts on the forum can shed more light on this.
Contrary to some posts above,
there is nothing difficult about setting the 5970 after it has run down for a few days. One option is just to advance the minute/hour hands. Even easier is to use the pusher at 11:00, which advances all displays by one day. And with this bit of effort, you sure get some useful information on the wrist.
You are on the precipice of a great decision
whichever way you eventually go.
My input, owning both references, is to go for the 5070P.
This is because you will wear it more, and if you ever needed to free up the cash you will have 5 buyers for it for every 1 buyer of the 5970.
Re the premium, yes there is one. But you buy the premium, and you sell the premium too.
Gary
both are wonderfull , but I'll take the 5070P
a 5070 always ment something special to me.
A 5970 is nice and more complicated but being more complicated doesn't make it more elegant
+1
I won't say the 5970 is less elegant, maybe the contrary in my eyes, but the 5070P is much "stronger".
Hate it or love it it is a beast that catches your heart, the 5970 is a (very) beautiful watch, the 5070 is a heartbreaker.
If you look at the history : today
Lets not compare modern pieces, rather lets look at the vintage pieces.
Patek 130 or 530 versus Patek 1518 or 2499 ..... have a look at their auction results, if only we can learn from history, then the answer is quite clear.
Happy hunting.
Disagree
I don't think the comparison has any sense here.
And 530 is a VERY valuated chronograph a good example of a chronograph more valuated than a chronoQP. I suppose you wanted to write 533...
However I don't think you can compare vintage with nowaday production.
cheers
Francois
Tic toc makes sense to me
What he is saying is that in the long-run a perp cal chrono will be more highly coveted than a plain chrono. I prefer the 5970 to the 5070 and in fact tried to trade my 5070p for a 5970 last year but got no takers!
Without hesitation, the 5970.
I don't own a 5970 but I do have the 3970 so let me put it this way ... unless I'm starving to death, I'll sell everything down to my underwear before I let it go.
The 5070 is certainly very nice and less expensive ... but given a choice .... the 5970.
I select watches based on what I really want and try to keep the economics out of the picture but this kind of money is serious and the purchase not taken lightly (for most, that is). Anyone thinking that an expenditure of this size which doesn't warrant even the slightest consideration of value is just kidding themselves.
But, I believe you already know which you prefer.
The 5070 is certainly very nice and less expensive ... but given a choice .... the 5970.
I select watches based on what I really want and try to keep the economics out of the picture but this kind of money is serious and the purchase not taken lightly (for most, that is). Anyone thinking that an expenditure of this size which doesn't warrant even the slightest consideration of value is just kidding themselves.
But, I believe you already know which you prefer.
Both are great ...
... but I would go for the 5970. Having looked at both on the internet now, I must say, that I prefer the 5970.
Furthermore, I think, that in terms of value the perpetual calendar is a very sensible complication.
But with those two to choose from, you can't really make a mistake.
Best regards
Georg
5970
The 5970 is a beautiful complications, in the future will give more satisfaction of 5070p....history teaches
Marco Italy
Thank you for all the...
Thank you for all the comments. Very helpful and insightful. I've decided on the 5070p (both are aesthetically pleasing in different ways), primarily because it is a lower price point...i'm already starting fairly high on the PP food chain so I need to leave something to aspire to (although I will always have the 2499, 5959 and 5004). In addition, the 5070p has a high degree of wearability (weekends and office). Finally, the exclusivity of the watch (even relative to the 5970r) is always appealing.
As an owner of both my reply would have been simple...........
a year ago I would have thought about it for about 2 seconds and then come back without delay with Are you mad??? 5970 all day long.....
BUT I had one of the first 5070p's that came into the UK and sold my 5070wg to help with the purchase......
How do I feel now????????
To me the 5070p is So Ugly it's beautiful.......................... It offends my eyes is every way but I would now rather sell one of my Kidney's than my 5070p........ It along with my 5960p gets the most wrist time of my Pateks and It really is a VERY VERY special important watch........
The blue dial/strap/ plat combi is simply breathtaking .............
So If I had to just take one??????? I couldn't ......... Sorry no help I know....
Regards
M.
BUT I had one of the first 5070p's that came into the UK and sold my 5070wg to help with the purchase......
How do I feel now????????
To me the 5070p is So Ugly it's beautiful.......................... It offends my eyes is every way but I would now rather sell one of my Kidney's than my 5070p........ It along with my 5960p gets the most wrist time of my Pateks and It really is a VERY VERY special important watch........
The blue dial/strap/ plat combi is simply breathtaking .............
So If I had to just take one??????? I couldn't ......... Sorry no help I know....
Regards
M.
"So ugly it's beautiful" Brilliant!...
"So ugly it's beautiful" Brilliant!
I'm a little surprised someone had trouble trading a 5070p given their limited quantities - maybe some think it's not worth the price for a "simple chrono"
I'm a little surprised someone had trouble trading a 5070p given their limited quantities - maybe some think it's not worth the price for a "simple chrono"
Sent via BlackBerry® from Batelco
Wow!!!! Is the other 5970 a J or R???
Miles, although your 5970p and 5070p are both gorgeous your OTHER 5970 has stolen the show....
What is it? a J? or an R? There is a classicism, beauty and warmth in that piece which IMO, make it the most beautiful of the three. For me, rose but especially yellow gold is Patek at it's purest and most traditional and of course on my dark skin it's always worked much better than P or G!
Going back to the original post - for me, there is no contest - the 5970 wins hands down. The financial premium on lovely 5070p is IMO misplaced market froth!
5070...
I have owned 5070P and 5970P.... as a watch, the 5970 is better balanced. But as a watch, 5070P wins for me. It has something extra...something that cannot be defined in words....it is without doubt the one to buy.
It was my first Patek too....and I still have it.
5970
To me its clear the 5970 is the way to go. Far more complicated watch. I also think the market will soon cool on the 5070s. There is a slew of them in all flavors on the market at high prices, how long it will hold up, who knows when the new chrono shows up in other metals and dials. Far fewer 5970s out there.
Good point about the impact...
Good point about the impact of the new 5170 on 5070 pricing. However, I thought the 5070p was made in such limited quantity (even relative to any 5970) that the price would hold up relatively well.
Sent via BlackBerry® from Batelco
supply....
I am looking forward to Bruno's explanation on supply and pricing.....
if price is all that matters, then I am not sure which will go up more. If you asked me to guess which was made in greater volume, i would say 5970....5070P was made for just one year only....so to speculate....who knows.
If it is about where price will go..... who knows
All I can say on Supply is...........
What my Patek AD told me bearing in mind he had sold me a 5970rg and a 5070wg.....He is convinced that the 5070p was made in far fewer numbers of all the 5970's and 5070's.... He explained that he had multiple watches in each colour of each models and only had one 5070p and when tried to get another could not........After that he least number was then the 5970p of which he had 2.........
All said and done.....Will we ever know?????
M.
All said and done.....Will we ever know?????
M.
No, we will never truly...
No, we will never truly know the true production number...
What we do know is that there are probably 300/350 max (PP stated production of c. 250 / year and production of 5070p for approximately a year). With that few items in circulation, there is probably a floor on value (ie, it only takes 300 people in the world with financial wherewithal to want to buy PP's largest (and, imho, possibly most masculine!) non-sport watch). However, who knows the level of that floor (and who cares if you're a collector rather than a trader)....
What we do know is that there are probably 300/350 max (PP stated production of c. 250 / year and production of 5070p for approximately a year). With that few items in circulation, there is probably a floor on value (ie, it only takes 300 people in the world with financial wherewithal to want to buy PP's largest (and, imho, possibly most masculine!) non-sport watch). However, who knows the level of that floor (and who cares if you're a collector rather than a trader)....
Sent via BlackBerry® from Batelco
My AD was in a similar situation as Miles'.
He was able to get me a 5970p but he was unable to obtain the 5070p. In fact, he said he never saw one while it was in production. Darma recently found an old PP Magazine article where PP stated that the 5070 production was limited to 250 per year in the gold metals. Therefore, that likely puts the ceiling on the 5070P at 250 pieces, at most.
Bottom line conclusion to draw on this thread is that the choices are both good and you cannot go wrong with either watch, 5070P or 5970R. Rarely in life do we get a chance to make a decision where both outcomes are great! Congratulations and please post a wrist shot! ;-)
This message has been edited by wilson on 2012-01-16 07:45:10