Comments:
PP 5127 & VC Patrimony Opinion
I'm now looking between the 5127, original & the 001 as a keeper & quite honestly, winding down on my passion for this hobby. Yes, James Bond did say, Never say, never again....& I don't know if that will ever happen.
Having said that, I've narrowed down to the PP 5127 & the VC Patrimony. My criteria, is simple - an automatic & a date (I know the Purist may opine to the contrary on the date function...) but lifestyle dictates my compulsion for both.
My question - does the cost difference between the two (5127 & 001, new) justify the newer one?
I've also checked the link between the Patrimony & PP comparisons - what do you think?
I'd love an opinion....
Many Thanks
Mally
PS: Also posted on the VC site
*** Mod - Picture added for illustration of 5127
*** Mod - Picture added for illustration of 5127
For me it is not clear ...
which VC Patrimony you are talking about - Contemporaine or Traditionelle?
Which metal and dial are you interested in?
PP 5127 is nice and a classic, but I would prefer the 5107P with the black dial.
VC Patrimony, the Traditionelle with automatic movement and date is somehow unbalanced to me. The Contemporaine with automatic movement is better and even better in the right metal/dial combination.
Oliver
Which metal and dial are you interested in?
PP 5127 is nice and a classic, but I would prefer the 5107P with the black dial.
VC Patrimony, the Traditionelle with automatic movement and date is somehow unbalanced to me. The Contemporaine with automatic movement is better and even better in the right metal/dial combination.
Oliver
Yellow or Rose Gold
Hi Oliver,
The VC Option which I was looking at was Patrimony Contemporaine 85180 with date. In both cases, PP & VC, Yellow or Rose Gold with white dial.
Regards
Mally
5127
Greetings!
I think both of your choices are very nice, but of the two I would choose the Patek.
I currently own dress watches by both Patek and V&C and have a great respect and appreciation for the quality of these 2 brands. I think that from your choices the Patek is by far the better balanced and proportioned. (In full disclosure I do favor the more traditionally sized dress pieces with 40mm and bigger reserved to sports models.) The V&C sits very flat on your wrist and seems a bit stretched while the 5127 is really just about as perfect a fit as you can get.
Also the date aperture at 6 o'clock just doesn't seem right to me aesthetically. It's taken me a long time to warm up to the idea of crown guards on a dress watch, but I think the Patek does it well and gives the watch a little more casual feel.
Both are truly great watches and I'd be proud to own either, but if choosing between them I wouldn't have to think twice. The patek is extraordinary.
Thanks!
Your comments are most helpful. Actually, I was initially inclined to the PP. I guess the best way would be to try both on & go with the one which appeals the most.
Regards
Mally
Perhaps this will help some...
Full review of my 5127R on YouTube in HD: http://youtu.be/N5idpXCUKuE
Enjoy!
Patrimony
Patrimony for the looks and the Heritage of the Vacheron Constantain ( 260 years) .
Patrimony well executed
I've tried on several iterations of the Patrimony at an AD in Geneve, and if you're in that great city - and see the prime location (an island!) of the VC manufacture in that old and watch wise city you get an idea of how historic and respected the VC brand actually is. They maintained the most impressive real estate the city has to offer - and did so for 260+ years! This trip was before I fully consumed the Patek cool-aid, back when I thought on paper that PP, VC and AP were basically equals. I fell in love with the 81180 VC in platinum with grey dial. Yes it's a monster at 40mm especially for a slim, understated dress watch. The dark dial had several channels to it when you tilted it to and from the light. I tried on the Traditionelle with the railroad tracks after the Contemporaine, and ended up preferring the more reserved dial of the Contemporaine. As I looked at my final choice and thought some more I realized that it didn't have a strong call to me. I was also aware of the deep loss in value a modern day VC withstands. I suppose if I was to ever get a VC it would most likely be one of their V&C era pieces from the 1950s. VC in yellow gold also looked wonderful. Bottom line, IMHO, I would never think twice about acquiring a modern Patek such as the 5127. It's a sure thing.
Unfortunately
Unfortunately , I am staying and working in kuwait , the land of camels ,the desert .
Due to their beduin roots , people here are ignorants . They don`t know patek philippe , vacheron constantaine , audemars piguet .They just know rolex ,cartier and chopard and probably omeiga and seiko. So, I realy suffer to tell them about the Haute of Horology watches. Thanks to the internet and sites like this one that help.
I own two pateks and one vacheron and love them .
Appreciate your response
Ouch! Lived in Q8 for 4 yrs (still recovering!)
I've felt your pain. Believe there's a small ALS and Patek boutique attached to the Hilton? complex. I left in late 2010 and there was an ALS then, with a "coming soon" Patek sign on a vacant store property. But yes, I believe gents in the Middle East like the bling a little more (Rolex, Breitling, Chopard, and other jewelry-centric watches). Hang in there Shadow.
I`ve got no choice
I`ve got no choice bro, I have to survive and keep up with the camels ( sorry , I mean kuwaiti people ) .
However , easy living ( no tax ) help us to survive . 
Did you get your Patek Philippe ?
Didn't get my PP yet
Just bugging Patek ADs where ever I go - trying on different models to get a feel for which I want to acquire. I was a civilian contractor out there with the Air Force and was happy to escape with most of my sanity. The money/tax advantages/savings was good of course, but it was 'hard time' and although I got ahead - I believe I would give it all back if I could get those years back. Meat grinder life.
go for a calatrava
xxx
patek is the only super brand in the
watch world. just my opinion.
cheers
geross
This message has been edited by small-luxury-world on 2015-03-03 03:51:18
patek is the only super brand in the
watch world. just my opinion.
cheers
geross
This message has been edited by small-luxury-world on 2015-03-03 03:51:18
Good advice!
The only other house that could approach Patek's Calatrava is perhaps Lange with their Saxonia Automatic Outsize Date. That may check some of your boxes...
Geross, So I guess the effort of VC, AP, ALS, Breguet, and the
several mind-blowing independent is just BS...because PP is so SUPER according to you.
PP has a terrific heritage and have made and continue to make superb watches, but to say they are better than some of their competition is not true. I think in many ways, some of the others have overtaken PP by a considerable margin.
I find PP highly overrated and overpriced at the Haute Horology Entry-Level. And I am a PP and VC owner.
size
The PP is 37mm and the VCs I guess are 40mm. That's a big difference to me. I would opt for the 37mm all things being equal and a PP over a VC.
Mally, I like the 5127. One of my favourite entry-level PP's. I am
not sure if its replacement is worth the extra-premium and I know PP made a big deal about the hinge for case-back which took them 2-3 years to develop.
I like the VC a lot. I prefer the date at 6 o'clock. I think it gives a watch better aesthetic balance than at 3 o'clock. But on the 5127, the date looks perfect. On the VC, it looks perfect at 6.
My only gripe with the VC is the 40mm, but then 40mm is not really that big by today's standards.. That aside, you can't go wrong with either.
Both embody the best of each brand.
Look at the Lange Saxonia collection, recently revamped. At this level of Haute Horology, Lange and VC do a far better job in terms of movement finishing than PP. Many will disagree, but this is the truth.
Beautifly said...
kpk! I agree one hundred percent. Either one is elegant.
Recently someone on this forum pointed out that watch collecting is a journey.
Get both of them , buy one and in some months or years buy the other one!
Regards
Edward
A journey
that makes me want to live a long life so I can continue to dream about and if I'm lucky, acquire, my most loved pieces.
Edward, thanks for your kind words. I am no expert, but I believe
watch collecting is very personal. There is never a correct answer. But you can always narrow it down to 2-3 brands / models depending on what you are looking for.
Mally, if you can let the date feature go, you will open up several other terrific options.
Saxonia wouldn't be good alternative because...
The no date would be a no no for me. Pity that they no longer do a Saxonia with date.
I also think that the 5127 is a bit more charming and well..you can't go wrong with a Patek.
5127 because..
It is indeed an outstanding all rounder - ideal to take a step back and reflect. There is simply nothing wrong about this watch and the size is very classical. Unless you have a big wrist I suspect that this will fit you better than the VC.
I am not sure if you looking to buy a new one but most AD no longer carry it - if you still find one somewhere
I would go for it as scarcity of a patek normally translate in a good investment.
The white gold version is very understated. I think that you mentioned that you would go for the RG or YG and
both are excellent options.
The 5127 and Lange 1 are my all time favourites so I would highly recommend the 5127 as being more versatile and, somehow, prestigious than the VC!
Christian
Christianch, while I like the 5127 very much, I wonder why you
and many others make these two statements - "You cannot go wrong with a Patek" and "Patek is more prestigious than VC."
The former statement - Yes you can go wrong with a Patek. At the Haute Horology "entry-level", Patek is nothing great compared to a VC or Lange. Infact, if you add FPJ to the equation, the argument for PP becomes even less attractive. Just look at the Lange 1, 1815 up/down, and FPJ Chronometre Souverain. Just look what you are getting in terms of movement, movement finishing, aesthetics / charm, and prestige. Patek cannot hold a candle here. And VC is way more beautiful, better finished, and better priced here.
The latter statement - I disagree. I think PP, VC, AP, ALS, FPJ, Breguet, and few independent are equally prestigious as each other. I do not believe PP is more prestigious. VC oozes prestige. Its not their fault that they went through a bad time in the 70's / 80's and only got their mojo back when Richemont bought them. And do not forget Lange. I am sure PP got sleepless nights when Lange 1 was introduced in 1994.
I love PP, and I believe like every other brand has its strengths and weaknesses. I just do not get it when PP is considered like the God almighty of the watch world, because it is'nt. And I own two PP's.
I love my Lange 1 but the truth is ...
That Patek is different and more prestigious. Now I understand and I agree with what you wrote about Lange but the simple truth is that Calatrava is and feels very different than 1817, Richard Lange or Saxonia. It is a much more mature line and recognised line.
Leaving aside subjective emotions -- watches are pure emotions so I completely understand why someone would go for a Lange 1 vs. a 5127 or even a Vacheron -- objectively a 5127 or 5227 is an all rounded watch that has everything you need.
A very reliable movement, a date, and is automatic.
Now I still love my lange 1 very much but it is manual (and not everyone likes that) and, whilst the movement is gorgeous and the finish is perhaps at the same level or higher than patek, the three quarter plate hides a bit more.
The reality is that watches are a statement too so if one could have only one I would still recommend a 5127 or 5227 over Lange or Vacheron.
I am not sure what the situation in your country is but here a Vacheron is priced at the same level as Patek and, to me, it is much less inspiring. Someone - or many - might prefer Vacheron but the truth is that Patek did play marketing, logistics, and distribution in a superior way for years and all this is translating in higher brand recognition, demand and lower supply.
There are very few Vacheron that I can't find but for Patek you still need to wait on several models. This is clever and I think it works.
Marketing aside, I still think that the 5127 is a very complete watch. The Lange 1 is lovely to me but it is a less obvious choice.
So if you do believe in the market snobbish game of high end luxury watches we have to accept the fact that the Patek is more prestigious. Of course one can choose to be different and simply buy what he likes. In the end this should be the criteria.
To me you can't go wrong with a Calatrava 5127 or 5227 but, again, this is just my view.
Christianch, thank you very much for your most thoughtful
reply. You raise points that are hard to argue with.
I am from India and PP is not available here. Maybe because they feel that most Indian buy watches overseas anyways and they see no reason to appoint an AD or open a boutique. On the other hand, VC and few others have recently appointed AD's and opened boutiques and are doing well. I know VC is doing really well. While there are many Indians who buy watches overseas, many choose to buy them in India. India is a smaller market in comparison to the US / Europe / China / HK / Singapore, so it is not an accurate comparison to these places.
Prestige is a subjective issue. I believe a brand can not have the marketing, distribution, logistics etc. and still be prestigious. Look at Aston Martin - its cars cannot hold a candle to a Ferrari an Lamborghini, yet its equally prestigious. Rolls Royce, Bentley, Ferrari were all making 'crap' until the early to late 90's, yet they had 'prestige' and were high priced. The quality, distribution, logistics, marketing all followed much later. Similarly, Vacheron went through hell for many years, but never lost its prestige. Lange for no fault of its own got bombed in WW11 and then got consumed by the German state.
I love PP. I think it is an awesome brand. But I have few issues with it:
- I hate the way they go on harping about being a family business and being independent. Vacheron is way older and you cannot blame them if nobody from the original family is still alive. Lange got bombed, so you cannot hold that against them. (Similarly many foreigners make fun of the US because its history is too young - I always tell them you cannot blame a country for being young.) I do not agree that they are better because they are family owned and independent.
- Their entry level pieces are now looking a bit boring and overpriced. More than the look, its the price. The opportunity cost today is simply too high. VC, Lange, FP Journe, Breguet have very amazing credible alternatives that make PP a less attractive choice. IMHO at least.
- Maybe its just me, but I feel that ever since the son took over, the aesthetics of PP's have taken a downturn. Many of the dials are aesthetically unpleasant. Just because it is a PP does not mean it has to be accepted. I do not believe that just because it is a family business, you make your wife the chief designer. I think PP's under the father were more attractive. Many of the dials now are plain ugly.
- I believe PP's real strength still lies at the Grande Complication level where no other brand has the variety of movements and offerings. It would be nice if they improved their overall aesthetics and made a more interesting entry-level line. How many buy minute repeaters and split seconds? But many buy time only / with / without date manual / automatic watches and with many other variations.
- And many seasoned watch collectors have told me that at the entry-to-mid level, PP finishing is lesser than Lange / VC. Why compromise here?
- Also I believe they will systematically increase production, especially to recover the investments they have announced for their new / upgraded facility. So how do you maintain quality / finishing / exclusivity while ramping up numbers the same time?
But these issues aside, I have love and admiration for PP and its heritage.
you are welcome..don't get me wrong.. I am not saying that..
Patek watches are universally better or nicer than a lange or a Vacheron.
However this particular reference, the 5127, is a different story
Few months back I have compared several Vacheron entry level with the Patek 5127 that I already owned and, frankly, the higher price of Vacheron (of if you are lucky the same) is not that easy to justify. I wanted to buy a Vacheron american 1921 but I resisted as the price is really very high for a simple manual watch without date.
The 5127 is very versatile as many people would need a date and that doesn't detract from still being a watch that you can wear daily in business or at a black tie event.
I bought many (too many perhaps) watches but I always revisit the 5127 or the nautilus. These are watches that you don't regret in the long run and you might even sell at a profit.
With the recent price decrease in Switzerland the Patek 5227 (5127 is no longer produced) is cheaper than a similar vacheron.
Just few weeks ago I visit the Lange boutique in Dresden. I already own (and currently wearing) the Lange 1. If we set the lange 1 and datograph aside the classic models do not really match the Patek. Pricing is higher and I think that lange did a big mistake to remove the date from *all* models but the datograph and the lange 1. Of course many people do like/look for classic watches without date so it might not be a mistake in the bigger picture.
You are right in highlighting the difficulties that Lange went through but -- setting this apart-- a lot of collectors still prefer to buy a Swiss high end watch vs. a German one.
FP Journe might be more "exclusive" but it is not patek. The brand is very young and only time will tell.
I understand that not having a distributor in your area is a great limitation. At this level of high end watches I think that all movements have a great finish and are pretty much equal.
The style of finishing is different (e.g. engraving on all lange) but I wouldn't say that the entry level patek is inferior. It has pretty much everything you need.
I am not a cars expert but I think that there are some difference between cars in terms of performance, look, desirability and well to a degree bragging rights. I do like Aston Martins because of James Bond movies
In high end watches the performance (on entry level) is not that difference so I would think about how versatile a watch is. Prestige is indeed relative and I didn't mean to say that Vacheron is universally more prestigious than Patek.
This said the pricing on the second hand market (don't get me wrong: I never sold one of my watches and I hope that I won't have too) confirm that demand is higher on patek (and supply is lower). To a degree it might be artificial but it works.
The conglomerate vs. family company is important to many as it gives to Patek (or FP Journe) the possibility to focus on the big picture. Public traded companies have to maintain some quarter by quarter mentality. To me that is not an issue but to some it is !
Back to the 5127 - my humble opinion is that you can't go wrong with this reference as the only/daily high end watch. Are there alternatives? of course yes. Is the 5127 universally better ? certainly not as it depends on individual preference, taste, distribution etc.
Christian
5127 without question
The 5127 is so beautifully proportioned. Classic, elegant, understated. A date watch doesn't get any better than the 5127, though the 5296 is nice too.
vc and iothers
are equal dfrom an objectvie point of view
but PP hat this special "something" which is wortkh it