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Zenith

I feel the overlapping subdials are a must given the large dial & small movement

 
 By: AnthonyTsai : January 17th, 2012-18:49

If Zenith designed the dial to not have overlapping dials, the subdials would be extremely small in diameter.  As a result, the subdials would make the symmetry of the dial very atrocious IMO.

There's no way to avoid the overlapping dials on these Zenith watches unless Zenith uses a much larger size movement.

Cheers,
Anthony

Perhaps

 
 By: LouS : January 18th, 2012-04:30
But the legibility problem would largely be solved if the minutes subdial overlapped the hours subdial, as in fact it does on the vintage model. There are two other solutions that Zenith used in historical models that I made an earlier post about: http://zenith.watchprosite.com/show-forumpost/fi-1123/pi-4743758/ti-715578/s--23/
So you see, we do not live in Candide's "best of all possible worlds" and it is Zenith's continued failure to address the readability issue that frustrates me...and others I think. At root is where one comes down on the watch as tool versus watch as jewelry debate. If tool, then readability is a must; if jewelry, design trumps all. No-one who admires Zenith technical prowess likes to think of it being tossed overboard in favor of design.

Design over function

 
 By: AndrewD : January 17th, 2012-15:15

I love the historical colours and dial architecture and the combined moon and sun phase is a nice and unusual complication, but Zenith persists in partially obscuring the chronograph minutes register. They emphasise the ability to accurately measure and display elapsed time to one tenth of a second with their classic El Primero escapement, but they can’t accurately show elapsed minutes! This occurs for a total of 5 minutes, between 17 and 21 minutes on the 30 minute chronograph minutes register at 3 o’clock. Doesn’t anyone at Zenith use their chronographs or read the feedback? And they could get around the issue by overlapping the hour counter rather than the minutes as this would still be readable. For one model it was a mistake, but to repeat it is a disappointment.

Andrew

My slightly frustrated thoughts

 
 By: Rickr25 : January 17th, 2012-21:00

I would imagine that these aren't the only 2012 releases. More should be on the way for Baselworld. The ChronoMaster 1969 is nice, except of course for their weird overlap. It looks like, not sure though it could be perspective, the seconds ring overlaps the hour subdial a bit which in turn overlaps the minute subdial. Strange. While overlaps are part of Zeniths history, they used to be handled more intelligently: the hours subdial, the less significant one, was the overlapped one. Nataf managed to design his models without overlap. It is doable. Dufour is being awfully stubborn here. He has to know that his overlap is nonsensical.

The Sun & Moonphase I expected at some point. They are putting all their movements in the 36kvph design line, which I personally don't find all that compelling to begin with. It doesn't look all that bad for a Dufour design. I don't know if anyone had the same reaction but it looks strange to me not to see "El Primero" beneath "Zenith". I love the movement and functions and it does look better than the model they had last year/two years ago, which was a closed version of Nataf's design. But Nataf's design of the Sun&Moonphase remains superior to both of Dufour's in every regard, it's gorgeous, perfect. In general, the classic ChronoMaster design is a beauty and it's puzzling to me that Dufour killed it altogether as if it were toxic. They are calling these new models ChronoMaster even though they have nothing to do with the ChronoMaster design. Why aren't they calling them 36000vph since that's what they really are design-wise. It's a silly name no doubt, but Dufour has got to figure out what he wants to do with the different lines at some point and be more consistent. It's been a couple of years now, and he talks about tradition and history yet treats the brand as if he's just inventing it now, unable to maintain continuity and identity of the brand. 

Well, folks, I've read thru all the comments . . .

 
 By: Dr No : January 21st, 2012-14:38
. . . several times now, and waited a few days to absorb their largely critical tenor before posting a reply.

It's quite clear, a full year after the inauguration of this forum, that the bête noire of the community resides in the overlapping sub-dials of many triple-register El Primero models.  At its core, the EP is a high-performance movement, and it's not unreasonable to expect a commensurate level of functionality that can take full advantage of its virtues.  Beyond the personally resonant aesthetic considerations of the New Vintage 1969, one of the reasons for adding it to my collection . . .



. . . is that its dial design is purely functional.  While it's correct to say that the EP movement is diminutive when compared to a larger case, there is one current model, the Captain, that . . .

pg

. . . skirts around the dilemma by printing the hours register directly on the dial, avoiding the necessity for a comparably sized sub-dial. 

The issue of a divergence between form and function is complicated by the introduction of smaller models last year, as their 38 mm cases should be able to support discrete sub-dials . . .

pg

. . . but have, instead, sub-dials consistent with the rest of the similarly-styled line.  To underscore the point, the Captain Winsor annual calendar model has a minutes counter . . .

pg

. . . that overlaps the constantly running seconds sub-dial, contrary to the design of the Captain EP. 

The point I'm trying to make is that the dichotomy between form and function with regards to current EP dial design is likely driven by a desire for aesthetic consistency.  This is an arguable point, as I'm more than willing to concede, but before leveling criticism, I hope we're all taking into account the virtues and limitations of the EP movement in its current state of development.  The trend to larger watches undoubtedly drove Zenith to increase the scale of their designs; had they redesigned the base EP movement, there's little doubt in my mind that their costs, and consequently our list prices, would have been driven upwards as well. 

Cordially,

Art 


Recalling the Nataf-Era designs...

 
 By: jmpTT : January 24th, 2012-19:05
....many of the releases featured case diameters in excess of 44 mm, yet all of the non-Defy Xtreme models featured reasonably-legible sub-dials. Including the good Nataf-era "big case models" together with the current catalog examples you presented, it is clear that Zenith still knows how to design a large-diameter El Primero with a legible dial. I don't think it's a major issue, unless the overlapping sub-dial motif eventually takes the entire line-up hostage. But...isn't this a possibility if the wrong lessons are learned?

I'd guess that the Defy Xtreme series was poorly received because the watches were a bit over-designed AND legibility of the chrono-seconds hand was sacrificed for embarrassingly superfluous text on the dial. Had the watches been perfectly-legible, I think that the community here would have begrudgingly respected that particular model line. I think the three thematic flaws of the bad Nataf-era designs were (i) unrealistic MRSPs (ii) over-the-top design (iii) lack of legibility. Some of the Nataf-era designs were quite good, but I think that might have been overlooked in favour of a complete relaunch of the catalog. It would also appear that design flaw (iii) is being overlooked in order to ensure aesthetic balance. I understand the need to keep case diameter in the 42 - 44 mm range, but I think legibility is even more important, in keeping with Zenith's brand DNA.

My thought is that the overlapping sub-dial flaw is unlikely to show up in the AD and boutique sale figures, as it is not the sort of flaw that is noticed immediately. I propose the possibility that this design flaw will dampen the owner's enthusiasm for the piece once the "new watch phase" is over, which may dampen enthusiasm for the brand when it comes time to consider purchasing a second Zenith. One can make the counter-argument that size counts more than legibility (such that the Neo-Vintage diameter is too small for contemporary tastes), so it's worth debating until internal sales figures bear out a result.

Interesting points

 
 By: Rickr25 : January 24th, 2012-20:33

While Dufour settled for a "reasonable" size of 42mm, he complicated things unnecesarily by removing the bezel and making his watches all-dial. So while Nataf's Zeniths were 45, 46.5mm he could get away with it by designing large bezels have having smaller dial openings. Of course the solution to avoid overlap is obvious- smaller hour subdial (as in the current Captain Chronos) or replace it with RDM scale. Most of us I think wouldn't object to an overlap done right and in line with Zenith's history: seconds and minute subdials cover hour subdials, not the other way around. Moreover, what bugs me additionally is the lack of individual seconds markings in the subdial and exaggerated divisions in the hour subdial, where 30 minute markings are sufficient, instead now they have some with bizarre 12 minute indexes. Another easy solution, reduce the size of all three subdials. The current designs, show the subdials with an outer thick ring which causes the overlap. Remove the extended ring and the subdials are very close, they could even be enlarged a bit and there would be no overlap. That would be the preferred solution for me. I think the overlap may keep customers away with an eye for details, while those looking at the bigger picture won't care.

In regards to the Defy line, I believe those were pretty succesful for Zenith at the time. If I recall correctly Nataf said that they accounted for 1/3 of sales. Forum communities tend to be fairly conservative and don't like all-black watches, and non-traditional elements like turbines and the like on their watches. The Defys were over-the-top. That was the whole point of that line. Nataf was trying to put the brand on the map after years of neglect. And he increased the models offered so that Zenith could have something for everyone. The Defy wasn't meant to appeal to conservative tastes.

 

Sure it's noticed

 
 By: LouS : January 25th, 2012-04:03
I venture to say that the overlapping subdial issue is the most common issue that Zenith newbies raise on various Zenith fora. But  you're right, it won't show in sales figures because there is no way to measure sales lost to other companies. So from headquarters, the issue is invisible and since sales figures are up from the last years of the previous administration, everything looks rosy. I can only hope that Le Locle reads the online buzz with an open mind and realizes sales could be even better but for this little issue. 

Deep disappointed ...

 
 By: nilomis : January 27th, 2012-07:18
Zenith went back to a time that I want to forget:

a) Open dial.
b) Overlapping sub dials

If they keep going on that direction, Zenith will be "a company that could".

Zenith should follow the 2011 line with:

a) A movement (El Primero) that "hacks". What is the point to have a precise watch that one cannot properly set the time?
b) More reeditions (Did they know the Deluca line?).

Sorry,

Nilo


More will come at Baselworld...

 
 By: foversta : January 27th, 2012-14:34
I saw almost everything and you will have some surprises.

Fx


Waiting anxious ...

 
 By: nilomis : January 28th, 2012-13:41
Patience is my middle name.

Cheers,

Nilo

In the horological world, patience is a true virtue. ;-)

 
 By: foversta : January 28th, 2012-13:45
But it will be rewarded.

Fx


Looks like a Fredrique Constant with that wound in the dial, don't get it

 
 By: Moses : February 1st, 2012-10:23