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Comments:

Another look at the Patrimony Contemporaine, reference 86180

By: respo : September 26th, 2012-12:39

I would like to return to a topic that Bill explored earlier this year, A Forgotten Patrimony Contemporaine .

Photo courtesy of WHL, Moderator

(Photo courtesy of WHL, VC Forum Moderator)

There seems to be a lack of information on this reference. As Bill explained in his nicely illustrated tribute to this forgotten Patrimony Contemporaine, the model was announced in late 2006 and was available in the catalogue only from 2007-2009. Bill mentioned there was no offical press release, but perhaps someone could post a scan of the relevant pages from the 2007-2009 catalogues. (I do not have those available to me.)

Ref. 86180 shares the same automatic caliber 2460 as found in the date model Patrimony Contemporaine, ref. 85180. Bill also noted that "in concert with the other Patrimony Contemporaine watches, the dial curves down towards the edge, with the hands bending down to follow the curvature of the dial." I love that detail of the Patrimony Contemporaine line.

I wonder if we can tease out a few more details about this slightly mysterious Patrimony Contemporaine, and perhaps some owners might be able to provide some additional photos and share their experiences, please .

In some ways, it is useful to compare the 86180 directly with the longer lived and more commonly known 81180. I am guessing that most people who have seriously considered Vacheron Constantin watches and had any opportunity to see them in person have probably had the opportunity to see an 81180 or two and can use that watch as a referebnce for comparison. It is also unlikley that many of us will get a chance to see an 86180 in the metal unless we run into a lucky collector who happens to have one.

I note that the case and dial of the 86180 look very similar to the 81180 with a few differences to be noted:

The 86180 has a display caseback
The crown does not tuck into the side of the case as it does in the 81180
And most obviously, the 86180 is a three-hand time-only watch.

One wants to know more. For starters:

Is the 86180 thicker than the 6.8mm case of the 81180 and by how much? The 86180 has an automatic movement with a date function, even if it is not displayed in the 86180, and the watch has a display caseback, so I am guessing that the watch is slightly thicker.
Other than thickness and the way the crown meets the case, are there any other differences in case and lug design? (It would be especially nice to see a profile shot or two of the 86180.)
Is the bezel the same? Are the finishings and treatment of the case the same as with the 81180?
What metal is the dial made of and is the dial finishing similar to or the same as those found on the "equivalent" 81180 models?
What case metals and dial colors were produced?
Were there any Boutique editions?
Are the hour and minute hands and hour markers the same design and size as on the 81180?

The 86180 seems to me to be a very beautiful watch, with a lovely caliber, dateless and with a large sweep seconds hand, for those of us who like that sort of thing (and I do!). There appear to be very few available in the secondary market, and given that it only appeared in the VC catalogue for but a couple of years, I am betting it must be a relatively rare reference.

Please share your thoughts on this watch, whether you own one or not, and, if you have them, photos,

Cheers,

respo

This message has been edited by respo on 2012-09-26 12:44:54

The one that got away

By: walidk : September 26th, 2012-13:51

Hi Robert,

Thanks for this post! Here is a scan from the relevant Les Collections 2008-2009 booklet:

Apologies if the scan is not clear but basically its a self-winding cal. 2460 SC (most recently used in the Chagall and Escher pieces. It is not used in ref 85180 - a common misconception). It has a silver opaline dial (just like the 81180) and see through case-back with a guilloche rotor (picture on the left). Unfortunately I do not tend to keep the larger full-blown catalogues sticking to these portable booklets. Its certainly not in the 2010-2011 booklet, and I am unable to find my 2007-2008 or 2009-2010 booklets (likely boxed up from the recent move). The catalogue only listed it in the pictured references: 86180/000G-9290, a WG version, and 86180/000R-9291, a PG version.

From the info I have collected, this piece is 8.31mm thick and is similar in case and lug design (if not completely identical) to the 81180. Alex G wrote an article about it on THL noting that it is more or less exactly the same as the 85180 but without the cut-out date at 6 o'clock - a better comparison I think than the 81180. I would also like to quote the following, from his article dated June 13th 2007:

"This model is being pre-launched in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Japan and via the boutique in Moscow.

It will be available worldwide by April 2008."

As far as I know, there was no special boutique version of this piece - I may be wrong though. The model was discontinued sometime in 2009. Bill was right in that it was very short-lived, and my understanding is that it continued to be delivered into early 2010 but that was it as far as this model was concerned.

To me this is the piece that still haunts me; its the one that got away for me. I've been on the hunt for a NOS piece for some time - my AD even contacted VC to see if they could help source it via a global search but we were unlucky.

I really hope VC revisit this mode, maybe in a smaller 38mm/39mm case as a simple 3 hands dress watch is certainly missing from the line-up.

Hope this helps, and glad to know that I'm not the only one who is craving a re-introduction of this piece.

Best,

Walid

Thank you,Walid!

By: respo : September 26th, 2012-19:34

This is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for.

I think you may be right that the better comparison is with the 85180, and thank you for the clarification on the caliber.

I only have the past two booklet catalogues (I have not seen the full blown catalogues yet), so it is great to have this scan from the older booklet.

I remain curious as to why the 86180 was so short lived. Bill posited his theory in his original post, but I still wonder...delivery from April 2008 - early 2010 is a very short time, indeed.

I am not sure yet that I am on the hunt for this one, but I certainly am intrigued by this seemingly rare bird. I really hope you find one, Walid. Are you set on white gold, rose gold or are you open to whichever you find first?

I would prefer the white gold within my little collection. So, it is a tad thicker than the American1921 and a bit thinner than the 85180, just to put it in perspective that I can understand. The proportions sound very attractive.

Best,

respo

Definitely the WG version

By: walidk : September 27th, 2012-00:19

for me, as a white metal person, it has to be WG. Admittedly I did come across a used one in a LNIB/MINT condition but I passed preferring to find a NOS. I think at this stage Its more hoping that VC introduces a clean 3-hand central seconds piece in a white metal with a guilloche 22k rotor and a <40mm dial.

As for why it was discontinued Bill's theory appears to be on-point as I have heard it from others,including an AD of mine, in that the sales for this model where a bit sluggish (even at around the €10-11k price-tag pre-tax) the price was closer to the 85180 than to the 81180 and buyers tended to go for either the 85180 or the 81180 as a result.

Its seemingly limited production timeframe makes it an appealing piece from a collector's point of view, and of course the design is quite attractive as well. I'm sure that once you handle it you will definately push it up your list, although in my opinion it will struggle for wrist-time against your historiqus trio and overseas (part of why i opted to pass the piece I found, apart from my approach of only buying new, was that at the time I already had a traditionelle that dominated wrist-time as a dress-watch -and still does).

Best,

Walid

Uh oh!

By: respo : September 27th, 2012-06:49

We may be hunting the same great white whale soon, my friend. ;-)

I agree, that the limited production period might make this more attractive to a collector. Who knows?

You are right, however, I am not sure how the 86180 would affect my watch rotation particilary with respect to the 1921 and the 1955. The 1955 has really emerged for me as THE perfect time-only dress watch. Honestly, I just cannot imagine finding another that will prove superior. So, in some ways I am using the lack of a white metal watch to try to justify another simple time-only piece. Yes, I can rationalize my way to another VC like nobody's business. A friend of mine and I were discussing our addiction to simple watches, and he mused that we seemed destined to end up with 50 time-only pieces. LOL.

And by the way, Walid, I don't recall seeing any photos of your Traditionelle...now would be a good time. ;-)

Best,

respo

Soon enough

By: walidk : September 27th, 2012-08:32

I'll try to put some pics up soon, but I doubt they will match any of the amazing pics posted of it.

Best,

Walid

I saw one at the VC Boutique in New Delhi a week and

By: kpk : September 26th, 2012-23:03

a half ago. I think it was in White Gold.

I prefer this one over the one with date. Don't know why it was discountiued. A size smaller would be a killer.

Yup, you are absolutely right!

By: walidk : September 27th, 2012-00:38

I just spoke to the boutique and they confirmed that they have it in stock. Unfortunately for me, they only have the pink gold version. I really appreciate the heads-up kpk

Best,

Walid

Proud 86180 owner

By: lnurmo : September 26th, 2012-23:06

Respo, I think the information you and Walid have posted basically sums up the specs of this beautiful watch. As an owner of the 86180 in white gold, I can add my first-hand experience. Please bear with me - I have a feeling that this will be a pretty long post since I've never really posted anything in-depth on this forum and think this is the perfect topic for me to chime in and introduce both myself and my watch.

My wife bought me the watch as a gift for reaching two big milestones in my life, one of which was getting married to her!

As soon as I tried on the watch, both of us knew it was the one. I will try to explain why...

The proportions of the watch are perfect. At 40mm diameter, it has a great wrist presence while also remaining discrete at only 8.3m thick (which slides perfectly under shirt sleeves). As a perfect modern-day dress watch, it wears well with a suit and/or dress shirt, but I find that I can also dress it down in jeans and a polo, which is a pleasant surprise.

I was immediately attracted by the aforementioned wrist presence, but also from the styling of the watch itself. Though some might maintain that the dial is too stark, I think there is beauty in the simplicity. A columnist that writes a weekly (satirical) watch advice column hit it right on the nail when he recently wrote, "A purchase of a Vacheron is never wrong...[and] there are few watches that are aesthetically more appealing than Vacheron's entire Patrimony line."

I find, in fact, the well-balanced uncluttered dial allows one to really appreciate the amazing finishing and fine details. Vacheron really got all the details right - the minute and second hand both curve downward at the same angle as the very slight domed saphire crystal. The minute and seconds hands extend right up to the applied cabochons and similarly, the hour hand extends to the applied white-gold hour markers. The maltese cross-inspired lugs curve downward to "hug" the wrist for maximum comfort.

The dial has a personality all on its own. In some lights, it appears white; in some, it is closer to an eggshell. And in certain lights (such as spotlighting), the dial absolutely sparkles. In this lighting, it is a joy to behold - the dial looks three-dimensional and it has such an appealing texture. I think this is due to the fact that the dial uses white gold as its base metal (or yellow gold if the watch were yellow gold, etc.) and then is finished with the opaline applique applied over top.

The movement itself is a work of art, but also very practical. It seems to be quite robust (this watch is pretty much my daily wearer, although I keep it away from any strenuous activities) and has a 40hr power reserve. The rotor is beautifully engraved and the movement is stamped with the hallmark of Geneva.

As you can tell from the above, I am absolutely in love with my watch, but I haven't really explained why I chose the 86180 over the two more "common" models, 81180 and 85180, both incredibly beautiful, since both the 81180 and 85180 also have most of the above characteristics. These reasons were mainly personal. First, this was my first high-end watch (and what an introduction!) and I really wanted the transparent caseback so that I could appreciate the art and science that went into producing the movement. Second, I think because the dial is so clean, I wanted the second hand so that the dial didn't feel so "static". In a way, the second hand keeps things interesting and gives me a way to appreciate the inner workings of the watch, even when its on my wrist and I can't view the movement. Third, I had a slight preference for an automatic movement because I loved the engraving on the 22k yellow gold rotor and also thought it would be easier as an everyday type of watch (so I could avoid the morning winding ritual (although I've since learned to love this routine with respect to a couple of my manual watches that were purchased after)).

Therefore, the conditions above ruled out the 81180, which has a closed caseback and manual movement (without a seconds hand). In comparing the 86180 and the 85180, I found that from a design perspective, I preferred the 86180. Functionally, having the date indicator is probably very helpful, but I found the cutout to detract a little bit from the otherwise perfectly balanced dial. I had to weigh the functionality of the date versus my desire to avoid the cutout and in the end, aesthetics won.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with my decision. I have basically been wearing this watch 5 days a week since I bought it (I'm sure the pictures I post in another response will show some scratches, evidence of my love for this watch). In that time, my appreciation for it has only grown. This watch was the perfect gift to celebrate a couple milestones and I know it will be on my wrist until it can be passed down as a heirloom to the next generation.

Thanks for reading my long post. I will also post pictures in another response.

lnurmo.

as promised, pictures!

By: lnurmo : September 26th, 2012-23:23

The usual caveats apply - although pictures can't possibly do justice to a Vacheron, i wish I was a better photographer and able to do a better job of capturing this watch's beauty.

And thanks for the photos

By: respo : September 27th, 2012-06:37

I especially like the third one where your watch is superimposed on a photo of one of the Metiers d'Art Univers Infinite watches -- evidencing the shared movement, and showing off that gold rotor. It is pretty amazing to think that both yours and the Escher and Chagall watches share the same movement!

The 86180 looks great on your wrist -- it does have a nice presence. And the profile is just as I had hoped. Wasn't there a thread not too long ago on VC watch profiles?

Thanks for the photos. They are fanning the fire. ;-)

Best,

respo

I have looked at these photos about a dozen times today.

By: respo : September 27th, 2012-14:15

Somebody please stop me.

One sentence comes to mind....

By: walidk : September 27th, 2012-00:24

wear it in good health! I feel quite happy when I see a stunning piece like this getting solid wrist-time and being lovingly worn! Thanks for the pics, Inurmo!

Best,

Walid

Thank you, Inurmo, for a such a personal post

By: respo : September 27th, 2012-06:29

It was really great to read the story behind your watch. This Vacheron obviously means quite a lot to you as evidenced by how beautifully you write about it. Yours is the first, and only, 86180 I have ever seen in person, but at the time I did not have the opportunity to really study your watch or ask you much about it. In fact I could not recall if yours was the WG or RG version. I am glad that has been rectified.

I am totally with you on the simplicity of the dial. The almost stark landscape of the Patrimopny Contemporaine dials, particualry in white metals, may not be for everyone, but it really works for me. The seconds hand can serve, as you wrote, to keep things interesting and enliven the dial. It is so hard to tell what the dial color and effects are from photos, so it is good to hear that the 86180 dial seems to share the same characteristics I have observed on other Patrimony Contemporaines in terms of color and "sparkle" in certain lights. Thanks for confirming that the dial is made of gold (one of the questions I had).

It sounds like the proportions are very good on the 86180. I love the thinness of the 81180, but at the same time, I think the very thin profile makes the watch wear bigger than its already decent-sized 40mm. I certainly feel that way about the Ultra-thin 1955, which wears larger than its 36mm.

You have learned to appreciate manual wind movements, as I have, too, during the past few years. This is one of the major considerations for me as I compare this watch to the 81180, for instance. I now have experience with a few manual wind VCs, and I love them. There is something about the daily winding ritual that connects you to the watch in a special way. But in the case of the 86180, as you pointed out, we get a nice back view of the movement, whcih I find to be very attractive -- the engraved rotor is gorgeous. Really, really gorgeous.

You have answered some of my questions through your post, which is very helpful. But more importantly, you are demonstrating what a solid daily wear watch the 86180 can be. I can't believe that this was your entry into high-end watches. It took me some time before I found my way to Vacheron. I guess I am a slow learner.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write about your watch. I hope you will post more often, Inurmo.

About the dials

By: WHL : September 27th, 2012-07:35

please note that the dial on the 86180 is going to have more of a cream finish compared with any current production 81180 or 85180 watches you will seen in showcases now. VC brightened the dials late last year and they all have a more consistent look, without the hue of the base metal color coming through as you have in the rg and wg 86180 models.

Bill

The 86180 dials do look a little creamier

By: respo : September 27th, 2012-08:50

...a little more egg shell, at least in the photos I have seen thus far, than the current PC models, as you noted.

Any additional thoughts you have on the 86180, by the way?

Best,

respo

Yeah....

By: WHL : September 27th, 2012-11:57

you should add it to the list, and put it near the top. The big question is which Contemporaine model you get, not whether you will get one.

Bill

Always helpful, Bill ;-)

By: respo : September 27th, 2012-14:14

Yes, it seems to be just a matter of when and not so much which.

Best,

respo