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Holy Trinity of Independents?
This might be one of those topics that everyone hates, but in case there is some appetite for stimulating, constructive debate, I though I'd pose the question:
Who are the Holy Trinity of Independent Watchmakers?
I imagine that Dufour and Voutilainen have 2 of the 3 spots locked up? I suspect the 3rd spot might be hotly contested...
Roger Smith? Laurent Ferrier? FP Journe
I think it is understood that the paradigm that drives a consensus on a "Holy Trinity" of mass-market watch brands is not entirely applicable when it comes to Independent watchmakers. One could even say it is anti-thetical to what people appreciate most about independent watchmakers. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, Dufour has reached some sort of pinnacle in his trade. Voutilainen cannot be far behind. I would say that this is even more remarkable given that these watchmakers do not have the machinery of marketing at their disposal to seduce the crowds. And yet we gather at their feet!!!
By definition an Independent Watchmaker must still be active
Saturnius,
By definition, an Independent Watchmaker must still be active.
If the watchmaker has retired, died or stopped production, he/she is no longer independent from the "tied" or "tenured" positions with the watch industry.
We won't go into long argued definition of "What is an independent watchmaker?" Suffice to say that the definition of the AHCI is the closest that PuristS follows. An individual artiste createur usually still handmaking the watches.
Regards,
MTF
Ohh this is a great way to start a fight on this forum. 😀
How do we define a “true” independent - eg does Greubel & Forsey count?
What is the Criteria for deliberation? Is it finishing (Dufour is king), is It ability to hand-craft everything (Daniels/Smith) or ingenuity (any number of dudes, from Voutilainen/Gerber/Oeschlin/Calabrese/Chaykin and many others).
A great question to ponder on the weekend.
What is the Criteria for deliberation? Is it finishing (Dufour is king), is It ability to hand-craft everything (Daniels/Smith) or ingenuity (any number of dudes, from Voutilainen/Gerber/Oeschlin/Calabrese/Chaykin and many others).
A great question to ponder on the weekend.
No fight. We've been through this before
bounce
Remember we started an AHCI forum when nobody would even give them the time of day (pun intended). They were small businesses and had no marketing budget.
The PuristS website (now absorbed into PuristSPro that owns watchprosite) wanted to give them a platform.
Much debate ensued before my time; about definitions and qualifications. Then, it was easier as most of the independents of note banded together under AHCI umbrella.
Even Franck Muller and F.P.Journe were members and reported on our AHCI pages before their industrial empires.
Later, when "independent" became sexy, more practitioners appeared but did not qualify as AHCI members. We changed the forum name to AHCI and Other Fine Independent Watchmakers.
When PuristSPro moved to our mobile device website format, the name was too long to fit your iPhone
So we simply shortened the name to what it is today.
We won't discuss how and why some "independents" refused to be on both the AHCI and our AHCI forum, preferring to be on our HoMe page.
Don't worry about fights; we can shut those down easily...hehe he.
Regards
MTF
Remember we started an AHCI forum when nobody would even give them the time of day (pun intended). They were small businesses and had no marketing budget.
The PuristS website (now absorbed into PuristSPro that owns watchprosite) wanted to give them a platform.
Much debate ensued before my time; about definitions and qualifications. Then, it was easier as most of the independents of note banded together under AHCI umbrella.
Even Franck Muller and F.P.Journe were members and reported on our AHCI pages before their industrial empires.
Later, when "independent" became sexy, more practitioners appeared but did not qualify as AHCI members. We changed the forum name to AHCI and Other Fine Independent Watchmakers.
When PuristSPro moved to our mobile device website format, the name was too long to fit your iPhone
So we simply shortened the name to what it is today.
We won't discuss how and why some "independents" refused to be on both the AHCI and our AHCI forum, preferring to be on our HoMe page.
Don't worry about fights; we can shut those down easily...hehe he.
Regards
MTF
Oh I hope it doesn't come down to fisticuffs!
I have the sense that the overwhelming majority of the members of this forum are well-practiced in the art of articulating an opinion without unnecessarily stepping on too many toes.
I enjoying hearing about what veteran collectors appreciate most about one particular watchmaker or another - especially those watchmakers that do not rely on branding to leave an impression in the minds of their clientele.
Why do people like Audemars Piguet? Everyone has their reasons, but more often than not the nuances of individual taste are lost under the overwhelming deluge of branding messages.
Why does someone develop a preference for FP Journe? I have trouble explaining why I did!
I enjoying hearing about what veteran collectors appreciate most about one particular watchmaker or another - especially those watchmakers that do not rely on branding to leave an impression in the minds of their clientele.
Why do people like Audemars Piguet? Everyone has their reasons, but more often than not the nuances of individual taste are lost under the overwhelming deluge of branding messages.
Why does someone develop a preference for FP Journe? I have trouble explaining why I did!
My two cents
Among the high handcraft, CNC-free independents I would say: Dufour, Haldimann, Smith. Probably closest to still executing the 30+ skills outlined by George Daniels.
Among the higher volume independents I would say:
Kari V, FPJ, Ferrier
Among the higher volume independents I would say:
Kari V, FPJ, Ferrier
Part of interview of RWS by HODINKEE
HODINKEE: You produce watches without the use of repetitive or automatic tools, is that correct?
RWS: We use CNC, which I guess is automatic.
HODINKEE: So it’s basically CNC plus hand operated machines and tools.
RWS: Yes.
For the production volume.
KV is between 40/60 depending on the year, FPJ would be around 1200/1300 but still claim to be at 900 and LF is around 120.
RWS: We use CNC, which I guess is automatic.
HODINKEE: So it’s basically CNC plus hand operated machines and tools.
RWS: Yes.
For the production volume.
KV is between 40/60 depending on the year, FPJ would be around 1200/1300 but still claim to be at 900 and LF is around 120.
FPJ
Curious to learn more about your assertion that FPJ is lying about their production volumes. Must be a concerted effort because the sub-1000 annual production I’ve heard from retailers, boutiques and collectors.
Just curious about your claim that FPJ is lying. Please tell us more! [nt]
No message body
I got the information directly for employees (watchmaker and other) and more then once!
They are maybe less format to the official communication line...
Euroasianstar do you want a little secret about a resonance?
You may have difficulty to trust me if you want I can prove the communication is on always transparent at FPJ!
Development made in-house and ...
For what I know the development is made in-house, but it’s some suppliers who produce they components. And the finishing and assembly is also make in-house!
Interesting....
So with Dufour by and large retiring, this leaves Haldimann as one of the very last CnC free watchmakers? Aside from the purchased sapphire crystals and hair springs of course
Why do you assume Dufour was CNC free? Because he subcontracted out all the CNC'd parts (cases, etc)? [nt]
No message body
Interesting - those two cents are exactly the kinds of
...bits and pieces of a greater wealth of knowledge that I am only starting to tap into. I should be looking for a biography of George Daniels - perhaps the greatest watchmaker since Breguet himself?
For me there isnt a Holy Trinity .
I find them almost all attractive in there own way . Each indie watch is somehow a reflection from the watchmaker or creator it self and there by appealing to me . I dont care if they uses a CNC machine or do it the old fashion way .
+1
Each Indie is a holy master artist.
Even better when they make their own movements (not an overpriced mods/outsourcing of big production brands)
Even better when they make their own movements (not an overpriced mods/outsourcing of big production brands)
There is a certain romanticism of expecting something
Bespoke to be difficult to make and labourered over. I was I finally attracted to RWS watching him make his cases with the three bands of gold and the effort going into it...now a CNC machine churns them out and a little mysiticm goes. Yes CNC are important where there are fine tolerances just to help with the reliability...But each person buys a watch for a different reason and I certainly not sure I could compare the finishes between the greats
From our visit to some Swiss "independents"
WatchOnTheWrist
From our trip last Summer to some Swiss "independents", we know that CNC is better than handmade for fine tolerances.
Even the watchmakers say so.
The polishing is hand made for romanticism and sometimes better in tight spaces.
Like you, I care about the end result.
If trained chimpanzees are better; I don't care if my watch is "untouched by human hand" !
Regards
MTF
From our trip last Summer to some Swiss "independents", we know that CNC is better than handmade for fine tolerances.
Even the watchmakers say so.
The polishing is hand made for romanticism and sometimes better in tight spaces.
Like you, I care about the end result.
If trained chimpanzees are better; I don't care if my watch is "untouched by human hand" !
Regards
MTF
I Totally agree with you my friend 😁.
We have seen it all last year . Like you said , the end result is whats importent
...end result
So the end result is accuracy, pretty finish or both?
If accuracy we should all stick to quartz and our mobile phones. If pretty finish, then I prefer the idiosyncrasies and imperfections that comes with truly handcrafted watches
If accuracy we should all stick to quartz and our mobile phones. If pretty finish, then I prefer the idiosyncrasies and imperfections that comes with truly handcrafted watches