Comments:
Many, many thanks.
Let's see how things develop as there's quite a bit of agreement overall, broadly speaking. Also agree it needs to be broader than just independents. The tricky parts ahead get more careful consideration. Thx again, much appreciated.
One idea is to look at last 20 years of GPHG awards, and see which 3 brands have won the most awards. It is at least an objective approach.
Personally and subjectively, I would nominate Lange, FP Journe and Rolex as the new and modern Trinity. HNY!
Excellent Point About What Some May Consider To Be Pay-For-Play
Am very humbled, and grateful, for my life's experiences. Here's why:
Within the luxury audio sector there's a 'type' of an award by ____ where manufacturers must PAY UP to even be considered, then they HAVE TO PAY MORE to use (license) the award company's logo if the hi-fi brand 'wins' an award. Obviously, the award means little in the eyes of... yet CONSUMERS may be fooled by the heavy international marketing strategies of this logo by various willing-to-pay players/brands within the consumer electronics sector.
You see, the 'trick' is that, as best i can tell, the awarding company/org that takes all these payments from manufacturers **does not disclose** the fact that manufacturers pay to be 'eligible', and of course manufacturers who 'win' this award seem not to disclose this fact either. i'll let you kind readers here on WPS decide if there is any real value such an 'award'. i personally do not, and feel FULL TRANSPARENCY needs to happen. And that's my hope with the new Modern Holy Trinity; we demand that there's TRANSPARENCY in the process. To further be fair it is 'open' to all countries, not just Switzerland-based manufacturers (ALS and Grand Seiko could...).
Thanks for reading my post, and i truly do appreciate everyone's input. The feedback, overall, clearly points to needing a new ranking (?Trinity?) system. What we have now is obviously 'broken / outdated'. Whatever comes out of all this, my hopes are that consumers and enthusiasts 'win,' as we have updated information to provide instead of mired down in things past that many agree no longer apply.
Within the luxury audio sector there's a 'type' of an award by ____ where manufacturers must PAY UP to even be considered, then they HAVE TO PAY MORE to use (license) the award company's logo if the hi-fi brand 'wins' an award. Obviously, the award means little in the eyes of... yet CONSUMERS may be fooled by the heavy international marketing strategies of this logo by various willing-to-pay players/brands within the consumer electronics sector.
You see, the 'trick' is that, as best i can tell, the awarding company/org that takes all these payments from manufacturers **does not disclose** the fact that manufacturers pay to be 'eligible', and of course manufacturers who 'win' this award seem not to disclose this fact either. i'll let you kind readers here on WPS decide if there is any real value such an 'award'. i personally do not, and feel FULL TRANSPARENCY needs to happen. And that's my hope with the new Modern Holy Trinity; we demand that there's TRANSPARENCY in the process. To further be fair it is 'open' to all countries, not just Switzerland-based manufacturers (ALS and Grand Seiko could...).
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Sorry to drone on here, as you make a very good point Bruno. So yes, am quite familiar with an industry company/org doing pay-for-play and profiting on other company's marketing strategies. The sad thing within the home audio sector is that the award company/org has dragged in willing participants(!). THIS IS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR imho. There are a few hi-fi, photography, etc publications some here might have heard of are also dragged into the mire because they surely know about this pay-for-play scheme, yet as best i can tell they, too, do not disclose this 'pay-for-play' award scheme which they take part by voting on the 'winners'.
So yes, the great news is that the new Modern Holy Trinity can be decided upon by many, without pay-for-play tactics or aggressive manufacturer 'lobbyists'.
Thanks for reading my post, and i truly do appreciate everyone's input. The feedback, overall, clearly points to needing a new ranking (?Trinity?) system. What we have now is obviously 'broken / outdated'. Whatever comes out of all this, my hopes are that consumers and enthusiasts 'win,' as we have updated information to provide instead of mired down in things past that many agree no longer apply.
This is 2022 my friends, it's time we honor the past, sure, and also welcome a fantastic future of possibilities! Am very much looking forward to the future of horological excellence.
Yeah, a few brands skipped, but the participation of indie brands have been strong.
GPHG has been a great venue for the independent brands to get their names out. Journe captured many awards early on to establish their position as a top independent watch maker. Kari, Gronefeld, Habring2, Akrivia, Kudoke, Petermann Badat and others all saw their name recognition and demands for watches grow greatly.
Nothing is perfect but the GPHG has been improving to include more industry members in the voting process. We have seen more and more non Swiss brands winning the awards. The entry fees are not the reason some brands do not want to participate those.
We may agree to disagree, but for me, I have leaned a lot about the brands and models that I was not familiar from GPHG. I did not mean to say that it is the only factor, but a factor to consider that is based on 20 years of data.
Nothing is perfect but the GPHG has been improving to include more industry members in the voting process. We have seen more and more non Swiss brands winning the awards. The entry fees are not the reason some brands do not want to participate those.
We may agree to disagree, but for me, I have leaned a lot about the brands and models that I was not familiar from GPHG. I did not mean to say that it is the only factor, but a factor to consider that is based on 20 years of data.
Great Post
And fully agree, as you said "Nothing is perfect but the GPHG has been improving to include more industry members in the voting process." Like you, I too learned from their enthusiast efforts. My previous post was a bit conflicted emotionally on a personal level as my passion for music runs quite deep.
I feel we, the (deeply) passionate enthusiasts, have a voice. We live with, and dare we add love, these magnificent mechanical devices 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 30,617,568 seconds a lunar year. We gladly support their efforts, and perhaps add a category to thank those brands with excellent initial quality and customer service too.
I'm thinking WPS owner / mods could take up the effort for enthusiasts here. As a side note, some here know I also posted this idea on TRF where, again, I'm 100% cool with stepping back and letting Steve and mods over there do their thing. Not sure how WPS would handle voting, whereas polls are extremely easy to do on other boards.
I feel we, the (deeply) passionate enthusiasts, have a voice. We live with, and dare we add love, these magnificent mechanical devices 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 30,617,568 seconds a lunar year. We gladly support their efforts, and perhaps add a category to thank those brands with excellent initial quality and customer service too.
I'm thinking WPS owner / mods could take up the effort for enthusiasts here. As a side note, some here know I also posted this idea on TRF where, again, I'm 100% cool with stepping back and letting Steve and mods over there do their thing. Not sure how WPS would handle voting, whereas polls are extremely easy to do on other boards.
Thanks for your notes and I could clearly see your passion!
It is a meaningful and fun effort to explore and see if a clear consensus may be reached for the new trinity. That was why I chimed in and offered my votes too. Thanks a lot for taking the lead and devoting your time!
It's a nice idea until you look at the brands with the most GPHG wins. GPHG is a little bubble within a bubble....
1. AP
2. Piaget
3. VC
4. Van Cleef
5. Tag
2. Piaget
3. VC
4. Van Cleef
5. Tag
Your points well taken.
I did not realize that AP has won so many times. I just thought that Tudor has won too many times.
If we look at the “Aiguille D’or” Grand Prix, only FP Journe has won it three times. For the “Men’s Watches” category, Voutilainen has won 4 times and FP Journe 2 times, and many indie brands have won once including Laurent Ferrier, MB
If we look at the “Aiguille D’or” Grand Prix, only FP Journe has won it three times. For the “Men’s Watches” category, Voutilainen has won 4 times and FP Journe 2 times, and many indie brands have won once including Laurent Ferrier, MB
Halter, Voutilainen and Habring2
Each constituent of a holy trinity must bring a different characteristic to the whole. that's the essence of it. this is a very plausible grouping that brings outrageous design complexity and originality, peerless finish and craftsmanship, and unusual affordability, respectively, to the independent world.
QUESTION: Production Numbers
How many timepieces did each manufacturer make in 1960?
Patek Philippe
Audemars Piguet
Vacheron Constantin
Is doing away with the idea of a ‘holy trinity’ an option?
There is so much high quality work across all of watchmaking that an exclusive club of three seems to be a silly conceit.
After much discussion...
...with friends and posts across two discussion boards, it is a task well above my pay grade. Perhaps left to pros /mods here, or perhaps a few magazines can come together and find consensus. Imho someone should update the list as it provides 1960s information. Some still think......
Food For Thought
1900 is to 1960
As 1960 is to 2020
Food For Thought
1900 is to 1960
As 1960 is to 2020
Holy Trinity? Croton Nivada Grenchen
Sorry...I just had to do it...
I love this watch.
The Old PP, AP And VC Holy Trinity
I have a few simple questions:
Who chose which brands were considered the "Holy Trinity" back in 1960s?
What was the criteria used back in the 1960, and do you feel the same criteria should be used today?
This list has not been updated in over 60 years, and so....
Do you feel the Holy Trinity list needs updating?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Trinity_(horology)
Thanks for your time.
YOU Pick The Third Choice For The Modern Holy Trinity
Well, i've emailed a few magazine editors and whatnot. So far not a single person knows how the Old School Holy Trinity came to be. No one has even bothered to know what the criteria were at the time. No one knows who chose the trinity(!).
From the replies, there's a strong love for:
Rolex
FP Journe
So, who deserves the third spot. My vote is for MB&F.
Again, there are no 'rules' as no one ever set them to begin with. There are no limits of production, again because there are no rules. So we have Rolex and FPJ as what seems to be a universal choice.
After MUCH Contemplation...
After much thought, sure, you classic guys win.
Let's keep the vintage Holy Trinity and only recommend those brand names so the uneducated, or easily convinced due to a lack of critical thinking skills, to stay within their lane. Those brands are what are popular, and it doesn't take any actual knowledge of horology for them to easily be swayed to those brand names.
Let's leave true modern horology excellence for the Next Generation of timepiece lovers who have years of investing time and efforts into research, who wisely understand the skillset and passion of true horological excellence that moves the industry forward. Please leave true excellence to those who have deep knowledge and understanding of the craft, and above all an immense passion who keep these mechanical marvels close to our hearts, not as just another item of many on a cold-hearted financial balance sheet.
Thanks for your comments on this thread. Let's keep promoting the Holy Trinity so they can stay in their lane.
Let's keep the vintage Holy Trinity and only recommend those brand names so the uneducated, or easily convinced due to a lack of critical thinking skills, to stay within their lane. Those brands are what are popular, and it doesn't take any actual knowledge of horology for them to easily be swayed to those brand names.
Let's leave true modern horology excellence for the Next Generation of timepiece lovers who have years of investing time and efforts into research, who wisely understand the skillset and passion of true horological excellence that moves the industry forward. Please leave true excellence to those who have deep knowledge and understanding of the craft, and above all an immense passion who keep these mechanical marvels close to our hearts, not as just another item of many on a cold-hearted financial balance sheet.
Thanks for your comments on this thread. Let's keep promoting the Holy Trinity so they can stay in their lane.