Independents

It feels like a lot of new releases all look the same.

I exchanged a couple of emails yesterday with Sarpaneva, thanking him for executing my watch immaculately well, and pointing out that I find it increasingly difficult to discover and recognize true originality and artistry in high horology.... Perhaps it's simply a symptom of getting older, but I'm not convincing that's entirely the case.... at least not yet 😉....

I am a layman in terms of independent brands and I stopped following them as intently over the past few years. Many new entrants, most are beautiful but they seem to share a common aesthetic feel. To me they are like certain artwork: happy to admire them for hours at someone else home but don’t have a desire to insert into my own.

Akrivia AKs, Krayon Everywhere and Anywhere, Sylvain Pinaud monopusher chronograph, Petermann Bedat 2941 and 1967, Renaud Tixier DRT Tempus Fugit and Monday, Dann Phimphrachanh Seconde Vive, Remy Cools Souscription Tourbillon and Tourbillon Atelier, Theo Auffret Tourbillon Paris, Raul Pages RP1, Xhevdet Rexhepi Minute Inerte, Ondřej Berkus Fusee and Chain Tourbillon, Aaron Becsei triple axis Tourbillon, Berneron Quantième Annuel are those I can immediately think of.
Some of these watchmakers are also in the midst of developing new complications and they are not officially released yet.
It's disrespectful to discredit these young watchmakers without knowing their works.

He was thinking on a grander scale that 10-20 offerings, there have been hundreds of releases that, more or less, look alike or are based on the same fundamentals yet demand exceptional price premiums when you compare to equivalents from the big Maisons.... Just my opinion, naturally....

new independents having no real focus on engineering/complications, then went on to praise Max for his chronograph and PC. I've listed many young independents with complications which Patek categorizes as grand complications.

I know this is a passionate subject but can we have this conversation whilst remaining civil with each other.

But for example
Akrivia AKs and Berneron rely on third party movements
Sylvain - simple module on top of unitas movement
Similar with Petermann Bedat , base Valjoux 13
The most impressive watch on the list with movement developed in house is Krayon anywhere. But then again Remi has the right background given his work at the high complications department at Cartier ...
I would put Renaud Tixier next, again one of the partners co-founded Renaud and Papi.
I have enormous respect for all of those independents, even if you outsource the movement (or clone an existing one) it is very hard work.

are transitioning to fully in-house movements. They are still young and just started their career not long ago. Grant them time to blossom and develop, and judge them when they have their complete portfolios in 10-20 years' time.

I am getting a bit tired of this discussion but one last time - the way the Swiss (and English) watch industry always worked was - when you need a complication you go to a specialist. Patek went to AP when they wanted to make the early pocket watch repeaters. There is nothing wrong with that. But let's give those movement designers proper credit!

was initially his project for the Meilleur Ouvrier de France competition. It was not meant to be sold as is, but to demonstrate his capacities around creating a chronograph and finishing. Then, people started to ask him about buying it.

I have huge respect for him as a watchmaker. My general point was that given the R&D required, designing an integrated chronograph from scratch is an impossible task for an independent. Look at even AP and how long it took them to move to in-house chronograph movements ...

…several don’t meet any real innovation threshold to me. Now perhaps there is not that much room left to roam and so real innovation will be scarce.
Krayon is one I’ve been looking at a lot this past year. There is something new I think.
But another dead seconds or tourbillion is not enough to get people excited.
I do thing M2’s point is a valid one, one that has been reflected broadly here over the last few years.
But of course there are exceptions, and you have pointed many of them out above.
Overall the feeling many people I speak to is there’s a lot of the same stuff coming to market. And most of it will not be spoken about ten years from now.

to attack them as a group, simply because they highly hand-polished their watches. There have been some undertones here especially on interior angles. These watchmakers are unique individuals and they use their own scarce resources to produce their watches. Many collectors love their work and their hand-finishing. Just look at the number of posts criticizing interior angles by a certain group?
Complications aside, how many different dials can we design for 3 handers? Didn't Patek and VC with their massive resources also produce similar looking watches like Calatrava and Patrimony? Collectors like me like them nonetheless, those watches with conservative look or partial dial and will pay for them. I don't want watches that look like toys really, those some call "innovative". That said, I don't open thread to attack a whole group of watchmakers I don't like.

I admit i am looking nowadays more to older indie (or some bigger brands) models then new releases.
I still love the look and charming style and designs from lets say a decade (or two) ago . Ofcourse some still make incredible and interesting watches which i would love to own at some point .

Approximately two decades ago, we were in a golden era of independent watch design and manufacture. In my opinion this era began with Vianney Halter and the Antiqua in 1998, which split the traditional perpetual calendar complication into separate subdials, united by a futuristic, steampunk aesthetic which was markedly different to anything else being made. 
Exciting times !

I especially have noticed a lot of new releases from smaller indeps which architecturally combine a small off-center dial and a balance assembly on the dial side.  Literally, dozens of variations of the same concept.  This dilutes the importance of each new watch with the same aesthetics, for me.  I understand where this comes from - it is easier and less expensive to make something of this sort than to come up with true technological novelties.

As you mention MB&F has been incredibly innovative in their collaborations with Stephen McDonnell, Remi Maillat of Krayon designed high complications at Cartier, Romain Gauthier is an engineer. Such examples are few and far between.

Most independents have just watchmaking background. So there is a limit to what they can do unless they get help, which they often do without being transparent about it like MB&F.

It is much easier to stick to the basics, especially when hand finishing is being democratized by the use of new machinery.

I don't want to dismiss the effort of those young independents, many of the watches are beautiful and unique. But realistically we can't expect to see from them the kind of complications say Lange can come up with. And the fatigue from endless releases of high end finished time only watches is real ...

For people who haven't seen it I highly recommend the Stephen McDonnell lecture at Dubai watch week.couple of years ago.

www.hodinkee.com

…this is not a good state to have.
While more tenured collectors will have this “fatigue”, I think new collectors and speculators and folks with overblown FOMO will prop up much of these order books for several years.
Now, a contradiction to the potential negatives of the above point would be that there is so much more money and people buying these high end watches that perhaps the well never runs dry.

While I see the point that similar designs appear I also have noticed some original ones. To each his own and let the market play out. Singer is a brand that produces some intriguing watches, nothing like the style described in the original post. The watch world can get hooked on trends/styles so this is part of the topic, just witness all the guys wearing small women’s watches at fashion week events. Ultimately we can admire and perhaps purchase watches we enjoy 😉 

A product that only exists in an unfinished Prototype form at best and it’s been pre-sold as it might work, no matter how hard it is pushed by speculators, who follow Journe’s strategy, to me has zero value.
The benchmark for me, is at least 20 years in the business and services all the watches they ever made, otherwise…good luck!

Complicated watches fell out of fashion, maybe 5 to 10 years ago. Or the flood of people that discovered watches during COVID naturally prefer simple watches over perpetual calendars. The environment is quite different from the early 2000s too. Independent watchmaking is now accepted and embraced by most collectors.