Independents

Kari bases the idea of his hands from exaggerated Breguet hands:

Breguet hands are known for their off-radial circles and the pointed tips.

I guess nobody complained about the misaligned hand tips and tails until today.  Kari most likely didn't notice it himself.  I'm 100% sure that he's not "hoping" someone would NOT notice it. There are a thousand other things that he focuses on making perfect on the watch.   When you have thousands of people looking at highly magnified photographs of a hand made, finished, and assembled watch, sooner or later someone will find something that's not perfect.   All I know is that he'll definitely fix this and I'll know exactly the person who is going  to do the job.  I personally visted Kari quite a few times and I know that Kari dedicates himself fully on all his customer's behalf.  I put my own money on him.

referring to off-indexing of the radials from the centerpoint. thank you

I have some pics stored at home of the hands viewed from very angle differences. I'll post them later tonight.
Camera and lighting angles will also affect how things appear in pictures. We just had a huge controversy about the St Gallen Purists watch. Be careful about judging what you see in pictures before seeing in person.

I will postanother photo if someone can tell me exactly how to post a photo... ?? I have been clicking on the "New Beta Image Uploader" however it is a pop-up & doesn't tell me how to upload a photo!

HELP! Thanks, BG

Attention Mac users: you must have the latest javascript and javascript turned on.  Cookies enabled too.

Our software team has been working hard to create our own photo hosting solution for the PuristS community.

Please give our Photo Uploader a try as it is on a beta soft launch throughout the site for all.

Some of the exciting features are:
a) easily upload multiple pictures at the same time with a couple clicks of the mouse  (we've set a maximum of 48 pics at a time)
b) add watermarks to your pics if you wish
c) upload your original large sized pictures and let the photo uploader re-size the pictures smaller for you
d) add captions to your pictures

Cheers,
Anthony

 

 

 

If the Photo Uploader still doesn't work, please check and make sure you have upgraded to the most recent Java version.  

For Window users, to check which version of Java you're running, please go into "Control Panels" and double click on the Java icon:

Then click on "About":

There is a known bug in version 1.5_06, so please make sure you have the new 1.6 version by clicking on the update tab:

 

If you still have any problems please feel free to PM.  Wuuld love to get a pictorial account of what you are discussing.

Mike

thank you Mike, pplater, cen@jkt & others who "understand" what I am pointing out.

My point is that we pay a high price for perfection and we deserve to receive it... 100% uncompromised. If there is an problem issue with an element so simple as the esthetic alignment of hands, then I imagine other issues hidden in the innards of the timepiece. At any rate I find the way that some people are willing to make excuses or turn a blind eye in deference to the watchmaker to be incredible.  Some of the new complications touted by some collectors and promoted in the editorials of the collector magazines as "innovative" are truly trite and redundant rehashes of antiquated, trashed experiments of 100 years ago. Some of us pay incredible prices for timepieces that will be unrepairable and worthless 5 years from now after the washout after the recession. The few independent watch companies that survive will be those who respect the basics of good design and precision workmanship and integrity without compromise.

Hopefully my photo uploaded if not, please refer to pplater a few posts above mine. The misalignment that I am refering to is misalignment of the radials from the centerpoint of the second hand. (this in no way refers to the Breguet design at the end of the hands) I am sorry if my initial explaination was not clear.

Thank you all... BG

 

Bart, the impression first gained from your first post ("I note that the two sides of the second hand are not die-cut as radials of the (same) correct centerpoint") was that you were concerned at the assymetry of this element:

 

 

which one or two of us have 'defended' as being a design element; a 'nod' to Breguet and others. On a closer reading, however, it seems that you may have been referring to this element:

 

 

If that is the case, then the latter is not to be defended as a design element. Whether or not it is a QC issue is still a moot point, it seems, but if that is the object of your post then it seems that an apology to you (or at least a corrigendum!!) is due, and it is respectfully tendered.

 

 

Cheers,

pplater.

 

Looks off alignment, right? 

No touchups or any post processing done on these pics to show how lighting and exposure affects the way the hands look.    The hands taper down to the tip and they are hand filed on top to create a curved surface.  As you can see the light and shadows refecting off of them might be mistaken as misalignment and depending on the angle of the shot look like they are bent in different directions.

Again, these watches have to be seen in the metal to fully appreciate them. After a visit to Kari's workshop and you'll understand the passion and dedication he has to his craft.

 

I should have known better amd explained it earlier since I'm a professional photographer.
When one does an extreme Macro shot, especially those by the non-professional, it's very easy to have the subject and the camera
not align (parallel) to begin with.
So a little bit of distortion from the camera, a little bit of taper end from the second hand and the light/shadow playing tricks,
one might have an image that seems far from the reality.
Allen shows us exactly what might just have happened.
I'm extremely impress with Allen's gentleman mannerism and his patience.
Thanks Allen
Cheers,
CL

CL's observation about you is on the money. Indeed, a patient, humble and generous gentleman Purist. Cheers!!!!!

Impressive demonstration and beautiful photographs.

Best regards.

BCL

appetizer plate from last year.

 

Thanks Allen,

Mike

As an aside,  I am not sure where these pictures are from and who they are by. 

Bart, I would suggest you give credit to where these photos were taken from.  If you took these pics, it may be best to post the specific settings of the camera and if any photoshop editing were performed on the images.

Mike

Raphmeister's pic:

Bart's pic:

Is it possible for you to use Allen's picture as a demonstration?
I don't want to be rude but I still don't really see where you are coming from base on the image PPlater posted.
Could it be a distortion due to the macro photogrpahy or is it something that you have seen in metal.
Honestly, you have claimed such high professionalism in your career but what rubbish it is if you are making a
big statement of another professional /specialist base on photographs.
I would suggest you try to see one in metal and even examine it with a loupe should you prefer.
How are we going to hear your point of view if you keep slapping us with your BELIEF base on your words and the PHOTO you have seen?
I respect your point of view but from the way you present your point, you just simply want us to agree. This is not exactly a dialogue.
Maybe you have examined a few of Kari's watches in person....if you have please tell us, we will be all ears.
I personally have seen a few and examined them carefully. They are beautiful , so beautiful that I keep forgetting to seriously try them on my wrist to test for the size...ggggrrrrhh :-(
Cheers,
CL

CL,

I understand your points and Barts as well.

Every watch from an independent varies from sample to sample.  Without macros we would never notice these subtle differences but these are the quirks we've come to appreciate in our watches since they are truly "hand made".  How else do we share our appreciation for luxury goods if not through pictures and discription?  Even if Bart could see and hold an Observatoire, what would his sample size be?  Your comments are valid and boils down to how much you value "ownership experience".  Do the opinions of owners weigh differently than enthusiasts who only admire from a distance?  Do you have to own a KV to make worthy comments?  Can you be an expert if you held 1 KV? 2 KVs? 10 KVs?  Your point...Can you make assertions only based on photos without any real tactile experience?

Yes photography can be especially deceptive given all the different factors, I know that you of all people are well aware of these factors, perhaps Bart does not since he states he is an engineer by profession.  Bart has not posted any photos documenting his assertion.  He is having trouble with the photoloader.  I've pm'd him and I will post the pics he forwards to me when they arrive.

I seriously doubt that Kari would let pieces leave without very close QC but I am sure this area on the second hand will definately be inspected on all his watches from now on if it was not before.

Documentation like the ones Allen have provided are awesome!  They only add to our enjoyment of Kari's work and why I am extremely jealous of Allen

I hope Bart's assertion are wrong but let's see his proof

 

Best and I hope to share another glass of wine/H2O with you and Allen soon

Mike

to be a owner of Kari's watches to make worthy comment. Not at all
But I would think for someone to make such strong and commited comment to at least view the watch in person.
That's all I mean, nothing else. If one is very meticulous and tends to love precision, how will he let images to cloud his opinion
and not make his decision when seeing the real art.
So, please don't get it wrong. I'm NOT suggesting that one must be an owner but you must have at least sample one Kari watch
to say that for sure that ONE of his watch has fault and if he has seen more of his watches, then he might claim that all his other watches
have the same flaw, not just by photo.
And, imho, if he is referring to the uneven circular bit of the second hand, it does seem to be more of a design element for me.
The effort and deatil Kari puts in his work is amazing.
One hands is 1 day work.....
the case is more than 1 week work. Only to file lugs is 3 full days filing,
without any mistake, otherwise he has to start again.
I trust Kari's devotion to 'Human Perfection'.
Lovesss*CL

unfortunately I think the words and tone of a few posts in this thread (from everyone including Bart) could have been better chosen to focus on the watches soley without any personal implications towards any of the posters or Kari.

I tend to agree with you.  I've seen and held 4 different observatoires:  all different case materials, different dials, different balance bridge layouts.  They are objects of desire and as close to perfection as my young eyes can see and appreciate.

Happy Chinese New Years,

Mike

 

This message has been edited by mkt33 on 2009-01-26 13:43:09

I hope to see you again in near future
Lovesss*CL

Hi,

Is imperfection, on a case by case basis, possible? Yes.

probable? yes.

Would a watchmaker with the integrity of KV correct it if it were brought to their attention? Yes.

Was Bart right in pointing out the possibility that there may be defects in KV pieces? yes

Has Bart amply and substantively demonstrated his two points -

1. a sample KV might have the problem noted - possibly, but look at Allen's refutation

2. that the problem, such as it is, is repeated and systemic in all KV products - no, no, no.

(2) is further weakened by Bart's declarations of CONCLUSIVE statements that KV's hands are die cut, which Don Corson, a fellow WATCHMAKER who has actually made a watch with his own hands (contrary to many "academics" who claim they can and want to, but never have) has refuted with his own experience and viewing. I and others who have visit KV, but who are not watchmakers, would support the statement that KV's hands are NOT die cut.

When confronted with this, no reasonable rebuttal has been offered, no mea culpa, no apologies for being wrong (so far, nothing on this but the repeated statement, NO, IT IS DIE CUT.)  Tacks like this further serve to reduce credibility (not an ad hominem attack, this is a meta-rhetorical point)

Again, there is no issue with pointing out imperfections, and whether imperfections are "charming" or "egregious errors that are unacceptable" are up to the individual, but broad sweeping statements that DEMAND agreement in principle are either signs of some gross misunderstanding that even the well intentioned discussions that has already taken place have not been able to address head on, or some other agenda that hints of trollishness.

 

Dogma is not wanted here, either of the positive, worshipful, god-making "they are perfect, and when they are not, it is okay because it is still perfect" sort;

or its opposite, the haranguing criticism(s) that ignores facts and evidence presented to the contrary, relying on pre-formed assumptions ("those hands are die cut, no question about it") based on facts not in evidence, and despite evidence to the contrary.

TM

I would love to put this matter to rest. Perhaps someone has an example for viewing in S.CA?

BG

I have spoken with Kari about the process used to produce the hands, and they are certainly not die cut.

I can say the two examples I have seen had no evidence of this "bent" seconds hand.  I only have one photo handy but it does not appear to have this flaw.

Regards, Al

. . . but is it possible that the seconds hand is intentionally offset for purely mechanical reasons? After all, many pivoted tone-arms used for LP playback exhibit the same eccentricity. In the photo provided that exhibits the highest level of eccentricity, the circular counterweight end-carving is shifted in the opposite direction to the connecting shaft, and many tone-arms are similarly offset . . . cordially, Art

My post was done in "10 inches tongue firmly glued in cheek" mode.

I am happy that you don't like Kari. The more people like Kari, the less chance he is willing to accept my custom order. That's what I meant when I wrote: I hate it when people gush about Kari's work. I hope 99.5% of the people that collect watches don't like Kari or other independents .

I saw 2 observatoire and 1 27 under loupe. They are perfectly executed in my un-trained eyes.

If you want good QC or other "perfectly" executed watches, if I may suggest, you should consider Seiko, Casio, or Citizen. I believe in Japanese QC method and their manufacturing techniques.

cen@jkt

 

Mike was kind enough to assist me by posting my photos for our discussion. (I have not been able to add my photos to my postings)

Please note, my photos & my notations coincide exactly with those posted by Raphmeister on 1-25-09 (see above)

HOWEVER, my photos are of a different watch.

With all due respect to the artisans who create hand made watches  ...  whom of us doesn't love the macro photography that we see on the collector sites... there is an intrinsic beauty to a straight line --- an sublime elegance to the perfect cut of the red painted tip of the JLC second hand.

Check-out the engraving on a Lang & Sohne bridge.

Given 2 similar watches... same watchmaker...  one containing an imperfection of the watchmaker... say just a small slip of the engraving tool. 

Is there ANY one of you who would choose the watch with the "charming" imperfection?

Aside... from the esthetic perfection (which is probably why we relate to the watches in the first place) how does this speak to the watch and it's long term "investment quality"?

Photo quality, light refraction, light reflection may all play a part in our observations. (Note closely the macro photography in the above referenced posts - the photos seem very good & straight on withoutreflection.) What is the truth?

What ever the number... 2 or, 5 or, 20 watches with crooked hands, IF THIS EXISTS in fact, this is an imperfection in finish and it is not very "charming" to me. I would not wear it (it would drive me nuts!) I would not lock it away in a safe deposit box for my sons to inherit and I certainly would not be able to sell it (even with an apology to the buyer). 

If this error exists then it needs to be immediately corrected by the watchmaker. If it isn't recalled & corrected than the watchmaker does not deserve to stay in business.

We are the guys shelling out the big bucks - we deserve uncompromised integrity of design, execution & conscience from the watchmaker.

 

I agree there is an imperfection on the second hand that one particular watch. I'm sure Kari will fix this problem if he has not already done so.

I just cannot agree that those are 2 different pictures of 2 different watches. The one that Raphmeister used is a monochrome crop of the same exact picture that you sent to Mike. Here's the original picture taken by KC Tay :



Just look at where dust specs are (pointed to by red arrows) Raphmeisters pic:

Your pic:

You'll be able to see that the guilloche areas adjacent to the second hand is also in the same exact locations and orientations. There is simply no way that these 2 pictures were taken even at different times of the same watch.

I have seen this exact watch in the metal before Kari delivered it to the end customer. I have a few bad quality pictures that I took of it while chatting with Kari (I only had my little point-and-shoot). is truly stunning. I was tempted to give up my original order to take this one but decided that I wanted one exactly the way I liked it.

Being an owner of more than one AHCI member watch, I can tell you that you WILL find imperfections on them. If I'm not happy with anything about the watch, these gentlemen will ALWAYS do their best to fix it to my satisfaction. I understand that they are human and I respect their work. I would not have ordered one of these watches if I only saw them on the internet. You HAVE to meet them in person and see their craft to justify spending what they are asking for their work.

to separate the discussion points (you have several valid ones) from the strident, torch and pitchfork screed.

Would you try to do that, please? It would make this discussion much more productive, and probably would also result in a much more substantive learning experience for all.

Whether or not the picture is of the same watch (I am fairly convinced already by Allen's sleuthing, amazing eyes and detective work, Allen) you have two points that you keep raising that are really stinking up what are otherwise interesting and thought provoking posts by you -

1. your insistence that the hands are die cut, and therefore the "problems" are extant on most/multiple samples. This is simply untrue and incorrect, barring some pretty damning and CONCLUSIVE indisputable evidence from you, which you have not provided, and which, from your other comments, seem impossible to be forthcoming since you have neither ever seen a KV in person, nor visited his workshops, and presumably, never been in direct contact with him.

If I am wrong on any of these points, please share and correct so we can consider your point on this; otherwise, please stop trying to use inductive or deductive reasoning to refute personal and factual observation.

2. your insistence that the (most likely) single (or rare) example of "imperfection" (and it seems a doozy!) is worth stirring up the ruckus you are, and reason to damn the work and impugn the reputation of Kari's work overall.

You can't possibly be saying that there should NEVER be any imperfection "slipping through" - if so, I am sorry, you have just lost all credibility with me as a serious, legitimate connoisseur (or even production manager or executive) - even six sigma level quality standards don't propose ZERO defects.

So given that this apparent defect slipped through, we who know Kari have already stated that he would, without question, repair or replace the defective part, given the opportunity to do so.

Do you know otherwise? And if not, why not give the owner and Kari a chance?

What's the harangue about, really?

I am sincerely curious and would like to understand, but without a less bombastic harangue to distort and cloud the relevant issues, I am starting to wonder if you have some other agenda than the meaningful, sincere discussion of watch appreciation and criticism. And if there is a hidden agenda, I guarantee you I will not hesitate to lock, even delete, this thread.

Please make your points as cogently and simply, directly, as possible, hopefully so as a 10 year old can understand the points (that's what my friends tell me my intelligence level stopped at) and without the lambast and hail and brimstone. 

And acknowledge the counter points being presented.

And please give us a little respect for being not complete fools and idiots; most of us are NOT rabid fan boys who feel the need to worship at ANYONE's altar.

Then, maybe, we can have a meaningful, substantive discussion that can actually be worth the time to engage and consider.

Sincerely,

TM