Independents

I note that the two sides of the second hand are not die-cut as radials of the (same) correct centerpoint . In every case, the second hand appears crooked when observed straight-on.

This (to me) is a huge & obvious QC flaw. I can not understand how Voutilainen would allow a tooling error of this magnitude to go out the door to their collectors/customers.

The watch could be perfection... but this glaring imperfection ruins the experience for me -if I owned one, it would drive me crazy until corrected  -I would return it immediately & could not have it in my possession for a moment.

Anyone know what's up with this? BG

This message has been edited by mkt33 on 2009-01-27 21:23:07

some pictures to demonstrate what you are referring to?
I'm all ear.
Cheers,
CL

Greetings bart1,

Nothing wrong for being picky. 

A picture of the flaw that you noticed would be very helpful (but based on your post, it seems like it isn't your watch so that might not be possible).  Did the owner of the watch send it back to Voutilainen?  Which piece did you get to handle?

-MW

g
(from a prior post by Gary G)

I do not own the watch. I have been researching several designs that I like -potentially for my next purchase. I noticed the Voutilainen flaw on their website (even with the angle view) & then I researched further as at first, I thought that my eyes were deceiving me.

I love perfect detailing & as such, I own watches such as a JLC Amvox1  & Glashutte Navigator Perpetual. To me not indexing a perfect radial off of a centerpoint is major flaw that should have been immediately corrected in the tooling (it is easily correctable). This should be a major embarassment that they should never have allowed out the door - It should have been immediately corrected and, not one article should have left the manufactory (let alone be visible on photos on their website).

I have never seen something like this before! Were they hoping no one would notice?

 

 

The highly enlarged picture looks amazing. Can you tell me which part looks wrong or can you circle out the mistake?
As for the images in KV's website, I thought there CAD, not real pictures. Am I wrong?
Cheers,
CL

No message body

checked out more pics of kv's watches and sad to say its an unsightly thing indeed.... AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!! you've ruined voutilainen watches for me gotta wear them movement side up now kidding

cheers
raph

The shafts either side of the centre are completely aligned. The circled part of the short end of the seconds' hand is asymmetrical, and I believe it is so by design. This may give the impression that you refer to.

Kind regards.

Moreover, if there is a topic we can talk about during hours with Voutilainen, it's the hands. Kari dedicates a lot of time building them. Each hand requires a lot of work from him.

I would add that we are talking here about hand-made parts.

Fr.Xavier

by Kari himself.
During the days I was in Kari's shop one of the mornings he disappeared for a couple of hours.
When he reappeared before lunch he had a set of hands that he had just cut from a sheet of 18k gold by hand on the milling machine, a Hauser M1.  No CNC, mind you. 
Along with the good set there were several rejects what went into the gold to be recycled bin.
I don't think that there is anything going out of Kari's shop that isn't exactly as he wishes it to be.
If you like them or not is another story of course
Don

i'm sure we all love kari's work. its amazing stuff... but tell me how that hand in the pic below is straight? the red line is added by me. I assure you the red line added is a straight line.

i'm just saying, maybe its good to be a little objective oops forgot... love is blind. for me, i think everything else about the watch is unbelievable. if i ever got 1 of these and it came with a second hand like that, i'm getting him to change that hand sure lovingly hand cut smothered with finnish love etc etc etc



cheers
raph

You are right that this second hand is not aligned.

I do not think the misalignment of both shafts is a design element. I used the above picture, on which I took you based your statements, and it shows both ends aligned and the off radial circle at the tip, which is exactly as it appears on my Breguet.

Perhaps you would have brought your point home much better if you had posted this picture in the opening post.

Regards. This message has been edited by BCL on 2009-01-25 12:49:55

nt nt

The seconds hand doesn't look straight to me, and even if the hand is bent downwards, at that angle, there's no way it is straight.

It's funny to see when someone points out anything negative of the so called "gods" - Dufour or Voutilainen - that everyone jumps out of the woods and defends them right away.  Kind of hilarious to me because many people these guys up on a pedestal.

Posts like this are great because it shows the even the so called "gods" are not perfect.  No one is perfect because we are all human beings.

Cheers,
Anthony

the first statement was made without any photograph and kinda suggest that all KV watches has the same problem.
Maybe that's why people step out to defend.
Then the first picture posted by John seems perfect and it makes me even more confuse.
The second picture seems misalign but that really doesn't mean all other pieces are not 'perfect'.
So I really don't think what's so hilarious about all these
Should the first statement be accompanied by the second picture, maybe the tone will be different.
Kari and Dufour are not god but they are really very well respected for their commitment in this industry and craft.
These two guys earn their respect from the work they show, not any hype or advertisements they put.
I do think they are special and am glad to have known them now through this forum and not years later
Cheers,
CL

I agree with CL.

Two posters have a point about the seconds' hand. The first with no picture and the second after a picture that shows that the hand is well aligned. It is only after a third photograph that we can all see what they mean.

Perhaps we should open another thread about the unacceptable off radial circled hands found Breguet time pieces.

I do not find the thread hilarious, either. Sorry, no smiley to tone this down with.

Best. This message has been edited by BCL on 2009-01-25 20:49:57

if you will see the watch in person  you will regret your  expert comment

...look at all the models released: in each case the second hand has the same feature. It is a design element (and one used by watchmakers other than KV - look at the hands on a Benzinger, or just about any Breguet). Still, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you: that's one less person in the queue.....    ;-)

 

Cheers,

pplater.

This message has been edited by pplater on 2009-01-25 06:40:28

First of all, allow me to say big THANK YOU. My wish is only for the rest of the world not to like Kari, and my hope is only me and a handful of people like his work. I hate it when people gush about Kari's handy work.

Yes, I agree the second hand is damn crooked. It's ugly and expensive

cen@jkt

There WILL be inperfections on a hand made watch.   Robots will make a perfect case, perfect hands, perfect dials.   I'll buy a Rolex for that.

 

these are die-cut... not handmade pieces. If they were handmade this would have been corrected -the mistake would not be replicated as it is! The issue is them spending the few hundred bucks that it would take to make the correction in their tooling.

BG

As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, there are two images posted which, on the one hand (pun intended) the second hand appears to be not straight, while on the other hand the second hand appears to be straight.

If one assumes that both images accurately depict the condition of the second hands, IMO there are two possible conclusions: one, that the second hands are indeed hand made since by your own argument if they were die-cut they would be the same; or two, that the second hands are indeed die-cut but Kari discovered the problem and corrected it by making a new die.

Either way your conclusion is flawed.

to make such pieces, they are not die-cut.
I have witnessed the fact that they are milled by hand (not CNC) from sheet gold stock.

Although it is very tempting with all the pictures here on the net, I would suggest visioning
real pieces and inquiring with the maker before making such statements.
Don

this is proven on more than 1 timepiece you have all my approval .Sometimes we have to be crude and realistic ,we pay top money for top products and much too often we sugar coat every comment or post in here.Again IF its a repeated feature,well design choice my ......... This message has been edited by mocoppoletta on 2009-01-25 16:27:52

this just adds to the character of the beautiful watches Kari produces.

I still look forward to acquiring one of his creations someday.

I happen to be both a collector AND, a manufacturer/designer (not watches)... that's possibly why my esthetic is uncompromising. After 30 or 40 years producing precision products, such an obvious flaw is, well... sophomoric & obvious.

non-matching, radials off what is supposed to be a center point is NOT a design element. It is a mistake that they just have been "hoping" that no one would notice.

Can't get away with it and we shouldn't allow it to simply excuse it off. Given the difficult economic times, independents shoul/will sink or swim based on their engineering integrity, production integrity and respect earned.

I  have staff engineers who are just out of school who would be fired on the spot if they produced a piece like that.

As for me, I would suck it up, correct it. I would never in a hundred years attempt to pass it off as a "design element". I respect my clients way too much (as I do myself). I work on their behalf, perhaqps that's why I have been in business for over 25 years, am esteemed in my profession and thriving during the recession. My success is a by-product of my good business sense and my clients trust in  the fact that I dedicate myself to work on THEIR behalf. I never try to get away with something or slip something past them.

Do not believe for one moment that the we are dealing with a design element here. Do not make excuses for or, let a flaw such as this go. They must suck it up, admit their oversight & correct the timepieces that are already in our hands.

That is the respectful thing to do.

BG

This message has been edited by bart1 on 2009-01-25 11:17:24

they're just watches. made by humans. errors will be there. i may have helped make yr point wif the picture but yr attitude could be nicer mate.

dufour n kv still make the best damn hand made watches

cheers
raph

Hi Bart1.

I respect your point of view. I think with the third picture we all saw that both ends of the shaft appear misaligned. No one has so far objected that it is a mistake. However, perhaps because I am a bit of a precision "biological engineer" myself I tend to be more forgiving to the off radial circled ends of the seconds' hands. To me this adds a little bit of humanity to art.

I recommend a visit to El Prado Museum through Google Earth. You can see high-resolution close ups of some of the master pieces of the history of painting; you can even see close-ups of the stitches used to sew the canvasses.

Being a meticulous character I am sure you will find the many, many flaws that the masters produced. Personally, I would not change a single stitch on those canvasses.

Perhaps on my way to work today when I pass in front Velazquez's home, like every day, I should dedicate a humble thought to human imperfection.

Kind regards.

This is a very interesting discussion. There are two images posted in the thread with lines drawn across the length of the second hand. One appears to show a bent second hand; the other appears to show a straight hand. IMO, at the very least that apparent difference in the two examples should undermine the certainty with which a couple of the posters have expressed their opinions.

After examining an actual watch I have concluded that, at least on that piece, the second hand is fine.

With all due respect to you, Bart1, I suggest that someone of your experience might be cautious about making generalized statements about your tentative conclusions without first taking the time to examine one actual piece, or better more than one, rather than relying on an image of uncertain controlled conditions.