Independents

Was pondering this the other night and thought I would pose the question here. Forgive me if this has already been a prior topic of conversation.

In essence, what I am curious to know, is if you ever have any concern about such things as repairability, accessories, and such when going with a smaller independent brand that may not have a long history and may thus have an uncertain future. Clearly servicing the movement may not be a problem if it is basic enough that common parts are available but I also think about such things as the ability to have a factory finish restored (if the casework is complex and unique) years down the road or the availability of specialty accessories (such as would be the case if watch used a proprietary strap system). While I love the idea of taking the path less traveled, clearly there could be some risk of owning a piece from a company that no longer exists. Is this something that is a factor in your decision when purchasing from a smaller, newer company? Thanks in advance.

DSD

...before I bought a watch from an independent maker.  Obviously, the more complex, proprietary parts or techniques the watch employs, the more likely it is that you will face challenges servicing it in the long term.  However, I do think many Independents are aware of our concerns as collectors, and thinking about how to face these issues.  For example, when I bought my Habring² Jumping Seconds (Admittedly, a less complicated watch than the other multi-complication, multi-tourbillon, etc. timepieces available to connoisseurs nowadays.) it was delivered with several replacement parts for the areas of the watch that most often require servicing.  The idea being that should I need to service my watch locally, having the parts on hand might make that task easier. 

I am without a doubt, a fan of the small, independent craftsman.  The key for me is that I am buying not only the watch, but the watchmaker.  I ask myself, do I believe that this person(s) is looking to the future and making plans now that will assist their clients a few years down the road when the watch needs servicing and they themselves may not be around?  Are the in-house movements they are creating designed to confound future generations of watchmakers, or are they building movements that will facilitate servicing by a well-trained watch repairer 10, 20...40 years into the future? 

Buy the watchmaker, not just the watch.

This is just my opinion, of course.  The future is always uncertain, and undoubtedly buying a watch from a larger company with a long, established history and commitment to making parts available for every model they make for 50 years or more, is probably going to give you more peace of mind in regard to the issues you raised.  Still, despite the uncertainty I know I haven't bought my last watch from an Independent. 

Are you considering a watch from an Independent?  There are so many awesome examples IMO.  Some of my favorites are: Habring² (manual-wind Jumping Seconds and Tourbillon 3D), De Bethune (DB 26), Peter Speake-Marin (Shimoda), Romain Gauthier (white gold Collection Prestige), Roger W. Smith (Series 2), Kari Voutilainen (Observatoire), and the tourbillon from the McGonigle brothers.

Cheers,

Daos 

Thanks, Daos. Very thoughtful response. So many wonderful watched

you bring up all the question I also asking myself and :

- should I get a piece all make in house which will lead to the service issue in the future
- if not then am I buying because of the case and dial design as the movement is from the very standard one or modify

am at the cross road for my next grail as I mostly have chrono and automatic, now seems pure(ly) time and manual winding is the favorite choice for me.

Daos, your Habring2 does keeping me think of it but am still undecided...till the D day

Best,

I too have thought long and hard about such issues and came up with the same conclusions.

For me the thought of owning such beautiful timepieces as well as becoming part of the history of the brand is a huge bonus. 

It's not wisdom, my friend, just opinion.  I don't know what the future will bring for any of us in terms of our watch collecting, and the challenges we may face.  I do love the Independents though! 

Cheers,

Daos

You've always got something cool on your wrist! 

Cheers,

Daos

NT

I love the timepiece.  It's mesmerizing to watch.

Cheers,

Daos

I chanced upon an Erwin Sattler jumping seconds watch by Richard Habring and fell

in love with it. It s now on my wrist.

Its actually modified from the Valjoux 7750 movement and Richard Habring is very proud

of this watch as it actually won 3rd prize in some competition lately.

This message has been edited by VPREGULATOR on 2009-12-27 23:13:37

hope all is OK .... and all the best in new year
looking forward to see more posts of your great pieces in 2010
Best
Damian

Hi Damien

                     I've got another big piece the Panerai  P9000  series L AT 44 mm

                     Will post photos later.

                     Meanwhile my Erwin Sattler.. No 09  ...

This message has been edited by VPREGULATOR on 2009-12-28 00:22:24

Love the movement shot in particular!    It does bring a smile...

Cheers,

Daos

Great watch BTW

Gosh - do you know how much the clock costs?

It'll certainly break my bank..

I believe Erwin Sattler has plans to get a high profile watch critic to give his views

on this watch.  So watch the news.

No message body

That's a great-looking timepiece in pictures!  I'd love to see it in person.  I really admire Richard, his work ethic, and beliefs about making dependable, well-functioning watches.  Do you have any pictures of your new Erwin Sattler?  Congrats on the purchase!

Cheers,

Daos

Its a great piece - you should see the amount  of work done through the back crystal.

Lovely at 44mm . The pictures I have already posted.

for the watch and a clock?

Glad to see you are back.

Happy Holidays to you and family.

Kong


PS : Shot a few quick pics of Richard Mülle's Regulateur Classica Secunda when he was here recently, show us more of yours when have time.
home.watchprosite.com

Hello Kong

                   There was this clock with the same number serial  number 09 but

                   its price was way too high and being only a month runner I gave up

                   the idea.. My current regulator by Karl Sartori runs for 3 months and

                   has a similar Invar pendulum. Not bad for a 100 year old clock.

                   Erwin Sattler's clocks are top quality but their pricing is really stratospheric.

Hi VPRegulator

Not sure how is the response here but I do wish the pricing to be more attractive. 

Understand it is promising in HK.  Last round when Richard was here, he mentioned he had installed the Opus Temporis (Perpetual Calendar with Striking mechanism) which cost near to half a million SGD.

Not that familiar with clock myself.   Understand from the brief introduction, he mentioned the accuracy of the clock is max 2 to 3 sec per month (if mounted properly) and seem to be due to a combination of the invar pendulum and air pressure compensator, which looks similar to Atmos' expansion chamber.

Just google Karl Sartori, but could not locate any links.  Will be nice if you could PM me the link/s if available. Thanks.

Congrats on your #09!

Kong

Karl Sartori - He's the highly respected  German mathematician and clock maker.

Just locate my friend  Gerhard Enzi (another authority on precision regulators in Austria)

and he will give you all the info you ever need.

No message body

HI

I have thought long and hard about this topic - have discussed it with collectors on a few different continents - these are my views on buying from independants....

It depends. 

Do you know a watchmaker (local) who can service complex movements - can fabricate parts, tools etc?  There are a few that I know of in the US who have given me the comfort that if one of my watches were to fail, they could at least attempt the repair.   The cost might be considerable, but it could be repaired. 

With this said - most watches from independants are relatively straight forward movements.  Simplicity - (i dont onw one) if we can believe it - is based (slightly....) on classic JLC type caliber.  Nothing truly fancy about the movement design - the finishing, well, no one can do what PD does, but can someone keep it working - hell yes!  Series 2, maybe the co-axial escapement is a bit tricky and Roger uses his own balance wheels, but again, relatively straight forward and can be serviced by a watchmaker 10, 20, 40, 75 years from now.  I've even been told that a Resonance can be serviced for eternity assuming the future collapse of the firm.  Kari - all vintage movements re-worked.  Easy.  Volker - I will assume that once he delivers his watch it will be easy to service ()

I own a couple of MB&F watches - these, if you can believe it, are also relatively straight forward complications that a highly skilled and well versed watchmaker can service. Base movements are GP based.  I'm not a betting man, but GP might just eat the dust one of these days soon.  At least their bases are straightforward and easy to service.   The issue may come with an MB&F in that the hands or dials or some special screw etc. may need to be re-made or re-crafted.  This could cost some $$, but, the watch is not unserviceable.  Plus, Max is easy to find so I figure I'd show up at his doorstep one day and beg and he's gotta have a friend who would aid a helping hand. 

Now - to my point. 

Look at brands like Richard Mille.  Although backed by AP R&P, its much easier in my opinion to service a watch made of "normal and customary" materials that the alusic/carbon fiber/futuristic alloy employed by this firm.  And what about the Silicon escapements from PP and Breguet et al.  Not so easy if you ask me.  I think that it all has to do with how comfortable you are and how much time, effort and patience you have. 

I'm in my mid 30's.  Most of the watchmakers I am buying from will, in the normal course of things live as long as I do.  Ok, so maybe some might pass a few years earlier.  Now my kids will have the headache - but, at somepoint during the next 20 years or so, I'll call Roger, Kari, Max, Stepan and say - hey guys, what's your succession plan?  Who is going to handle service for my kids?  Remember, these gentlemen (and ladies) are doing what they do because they love it - they are friendly and will also discuss these items with you personally.  If you want to buy a Series 2, call Roger, tell him your concerns and listen to his thoughts on the matter.  Same goes for any independant.  Maybe Msr. Journe is a bit busy, but I guarantee that one of the boutique staff/managers etc will gladly address your request and questions.  You are buying a multi-thousand dollar item, and to me, the independant watchmaker is much more suited to answer you in an honest and truthful way that a faceless brand.  (I'm ducking now....)

What do you do if you bought a watch from company X, and they go out of business?  Its happened a few times to "big" brands. 

Its all a gamble.  To me, any "fine" watch with any "in-house" or "proprietary finish or modified" movement has some risk assoicated with its purchase.  If you think you can just buy any UN or PP or VC and think, hey, I'm all ok because there is a big brand behind me, I say, think again! 

Take Ferrari for example.  They are so damn finicky.  Wacky stuff all the time with these cars.  Silly to even buy one if you ask me....I had a problem which my local dealer could not fix and or diagnose properly - so, Ferrari recomended an independant repair shop, and he solved the issue.  Point here - Its never a sure thing with the big brands either.  I think that's why folks like Claret and Parmigiani and Kari and now BNB (??) started in business. To solve the problems which the big brands and others could not solve. 

There will always be a watchmaker who will be able to fix any watch.  Always.  As long as the materials are readily available. 

Be warry of these trendy materials.  That's my best advice.  I love some of these watches, but am scared.  So, for my $300K, I'll put it in a few "Basic" not-so-complicated pieces and enjoy it that way . 

Good luck - buy for today.  I dont know how old you are but for the forseeable future - watchmakers of our generation will be here .

Happy Holidays!

Viva la independants!

asg

(Now if Santa could just lend some elves to a select few watchmakers.....I know a few guys who would be very happy)

Appreciate hearing your perspective. Makes sense to me.

Thank you for your thoughts.  I found them very enlightening, and think it will be interesting to see what happens to watches made from the new, high tech materials you bring up in your post.   

Cheers,

Daos

there were only two companies in Europe which could manufacture CDs - now everybody can burn them on the home computer. This trickling down of technology could happen with Silicium parts as well, so the issue of replacement parts becomes almost a non-brainer.

Regards,
Magnus

But, the widespread use of the CD was much greater at its "birth" than the use of silicium or silicon or other for watches......I agree that at some point, everything is replaceable, for a price. 

The CD has been out for twenty years plus???

So, maybe in twenty years we'll see more silicon parts as commonplace - but I have no crystal ball.  Stick with steel, brass, silver, german silver, gold, platnium etc and you'll be just fine. 



Happy holidays!

Best regards,

asg