Horological Meandering

than almighty Rolex of today?

Just curious...

TM

in Mexico City in about 1973 0r 74 and it was the finest working watch (accurate) and eye catching (many female comments on) of all
the watches I have bought, It was also the ONLY watch never needed repair and was noted by my watchmaker as "the finest chronometer he {never}
worked on" .
I was impressed with the chromium plating on the bezel, never faded and I almost bought the Marine Crono also Darn should have,
but the wife moaned and groaned when I bought the connie, now you know why she is The X. lol JMHO

I certainly remember that as early as Mexico City (and perhaps as early as Rome) Omega was clearly identified as the official Olympic timer -- for a young lad like myself, this certainly made an impression.  I remember being in Lucerne with a band tour group in 1971 and being told by a member of the group that the Rolex was the greatest watch in the world -- but I certainly had a lot more respect for Omega at the time!  Of course, I was 15 years old, so all comments should be taken with a grain of salt...(by the way, I still have the watch that I bought on that trip -- a Bucherer automatic, SS, blue face -- paid about 80 SF, if memory serves).

As of today, I own two Omegas (a Ploprof and a Speedy triple date), but still no Rolexes.  Love the look of the orange Planet Ocean (OK, sue me), the coaxial concept, and the history of the brand.

Best,

Gary G

a 2nd son of a 2nd son does not bode well for inheritance of good watches, in a culture that gives everything to #1 son of each generation :-(

Both generations before me had nothing but the BEST to say about Omega and it's truly "superlative" chronometry. In those days, Mido and Rado were the other big names in the Far East.

Rolex was a Johnny-come-lately because they did not really take off until the 1950s and 60s with solid gold bracelet Day-Dates and James Bond-endorsed Submariners. Even though the screen James Bond now wears Omega, audiences are not as awed by his image of  "international man of mystery and sexual prowess" as they used to
I blame cable TV and CNN for that!

Regards,
MTF

Hi Thomas, can't help you there as I have always been enamoured with Rolex as my dad wore one when i was growing up and I didn't pay much heed to Omega. As a collector who only recently awakened to the world of horology though, Omega currently also has no appeal to me personally. Maybe its the marketing overload in the recent past with Schumacher(who I do respect as one the best F1 drivers just not care about his choice in watches) and Cindy Crawford(love the mole and the aerobics video and centrefolds but again have no care about the brand of watch she would choose) in the past or with Pierce Brosnan as Bond and even now with Daniel Craig "omeegha" as Bond product placements.  
Finding out more about Omega recently has just made me more averse to the brand as well, with a dodgy batch of movements, and certain things they have done to undermine others and other stuff. The Speedy was probably their one saving grace but it doesn't appeal to me.
MTF, in terms of international man of mystery, it has to be Connery that did it best. Check this out The Bond watch:

http : //timetapestry.blogspot.com/2007/02/bond-james-bond-bond-watch.html (remove spaces to use URL)

Cheers
Raph

[Edited to remove re-directing link] This message has been edited by MTF on 2007-02-19 06:35:33

"Finding out more about Omega recently has just made me more averse to the brand as well, with a dodgy batch of movements, and certain things they have done to undermine others and other stuff. "

Hi, Raphael,

Your experience is as interesting to me as any other; my questions of this type have no agenda and are just learning and sharing experiences, for me, and hopefully, for others.  I have my personal favorites (my love for AP is well known) but I well know these "preferences" are purely personal, biased by personal experiences and my personal relationships; this seems consistent with the comments shared so far as well - what our parents/ancestors wore; the cultural and "era" context we grew up in; etc.

That comment referenced above piques my interest, though; I have not heard about dodgy batches of movements, and what has Omega done to undermine others? What sort of other stuff?

Cheers,

TM

Hi Thomas

We share a same love, although mine is currently more confined to the

Hi Thomas

We share a same love, although mine is currently more confined to the

Ok back to your questions... on the dodgy batches of movements, there is quite a number of folk who have experienced issues with the 3303-3313 movements(and more are being added to this list) from Omega and it was so bad that I believe some had suggested a recall be done (if I remember correctly as I read these posts some time ago). If you google chuck maddox's watch blog and his comments as well as other omega owners comments on these movements, I believe you would be able to empathise with these folks thinking they have bought a reliable and trusty watch / movement and to be let down by numerous issues common to the whole range.

Quoting from chuck's blog just so you know I'm not blowing hot air here "And some personal opinions: With 3 failures in the past 5 1/2 weeks, with a variety of models (Speedmaster Broad Arrow, Double Eagle Constellation, Seamaster Olympic Commemorative), new models (Connie)m repeat repair (BA) and 18 month old purchase, I would think that even the most strident c.33xx fans would take pause at these continuing reports of problems with this movement."Another excerpt "Levy03 in the TZ Omega Forum pointed out that there have been a trio of reports of Speedmaster Day-Date (Also known as Day-Date Month) models which have reportedly had the problem within warranty of failing to change the day of the week. In the first instance a purchaser of a 3523.30 had two examples fail from the same Authorized Dealer and was waiting on his third.".

There are also a number of posts on TZ's Omega forums that I believe will affirm the problems with these movements.

On the second point, about doing "stuff" to undermine others, its actually about the case of Omega suing Eddie Platts from TimeFactors

I hope this clarifies what I stated earlier. I guess these negative perceptions have put me off Omega for now but I am probably in a minority camp of people who do some sleuthing into the brands I want to know more about it and finding this underneath. A fair number of people have of course had positive experiences and its great that they have had that.

Cheers

Raph

. . .is a little over the line for us; it's not appropriate to comment on legal action here.  

I believe the teething issues with the first series of 33xx movements have long since been addressed BTW; the comments you cite are from mid 2006 IIRC.

Please no more comments about litigation, thanks; I hope you'll appreciate that we really don't want to air other people's dirty laundry, even if seeing it just a matter of moving to another window, pun intended.

Jack

When I walked in for + 25 years ago,
to my old watchmaker, I suppose he was as old as I am now.., and I was thinking of buying a Rolex.
He strongly adviced me not to do, even though he sold them.
"This", he said,"is the watch for you, you will never get tired of this watch!"

It was the Speedy Moon Watch.
And he was right!

He also said that he as a watchmaker,
remeber that this was a quarter of century away(!), considered Omega far above Rolex.

In my case he was right, and now my son proudly wears it daily!

So, Thomas I remeber, and also my father was of that opinion, only Omegas for him :-)

For me it's something other,
but that's another story :-

Cheers

Doc

I think Rolex and Omega were equals...each having the edge at different times and in different areas.  In the seventies I think Omega (and much of the Swiss watch industry) went "disco" and lost focus and fell victim to the the great quarts axe.  As for modern Omegas (and Rolexes), I don't think there is a maker alive who doesn't experience a "watch from hell" escaping from the factory now and then. 

late fiftes ref 1013, 18k pg, 1570 cal.  36mm case, 20mm lugs.
 '> ">

Hi Thomas,
When I first became involved with the trade in the late 1960s, it was a case of swings and roundabouts - at least in the UK market - as Rolex and Omega took turns to be the favourite brands at their level in the marke. Retailers fought to become sole distributors in their area for first one brand and then the other as each took its turn to be top dog. As far as I can remember, this continued into the early or mid 70s before Rolex took the upper hand. It seems that Omega now have every intention of reviving the reputation they had in the 60s and 70s, although Omega President Stephen Urquhart refuses to say that he wants to challenge Rolex. With typical political correctness he merely says that he wants Omega to regain the status it once had. Antiquorum's Omegamania auction and the launch of the new twin barrel Co-Axial Hour Vision range are seen as major steps along the road. The Co-Axial movement seems to be Omega's not-so-secret weapon. As the cost of servicing mechanical watches continues to rise, the six to seven year service interval of the Co-Axial may prove to be an important factor for some customers. I'd love to know how you see the future fortunes of these two companies.

This is not some tongue in cheek comment. It is my personal perception.

In fact, I had these same words with folk deep inside the watch industry, as well as advertising /media people.

Rolex is incredible. It grows from strenght to strenght. It has stopped making watches as long ago as 1996. It simply makes Rolexes. People buy Rolexes and not watches. There is almost no depth or range in their menu. The image is the oyster case/submariner/daytona.

Omega had at one time, only the Speedmaster to "come against" the entire Rolex arsenal.

In my opinion, it is Omega that has one SINGLE minded and tenacious facility to continue with making watches.
(1)Mecaquartz
(2) mecaquartz Marinechronometer
(3)SpeedyPro
(4) SeamasterProChrono with underwater useable chronos (world's first?)
(5) Marine case way back when! With dual case sealing.
(6) Co Axials
(7) Using eta and Valjoux as "inhouse" is a strategic move, since they practically "own" it.
(8) Immense array of enamel work watches to rival Patek
(9) Immense array of pocket watches with filigree and enamel work that rivals Patek
(10) Incredible research into underwater watches...Seamaster Ploprof
(12) Pouring in funds to bring Titanium into watchmaking as early as 1978.


I could go on.

I expect great things from Omega. They have credibility as a watchmaker. They have not got a following of glamour folks, and this is a plus point for an observer. They seem to have gathered a large community of followers who are largely interested in "having a good watch without an having to pay for glamour".

The fact that Omega has generally NOT been high handed with the consumer, but has treated the global consumer with respect, with service, and tries hard to court consumers in to me a GOOD thing. The company will bring credibility to watch collecting as a hobby, and also as an academic pursuit worthy of study...like wine/ceramics/music.

Rolex on the other hand is (IMHO) building a powerful business, and suceeding, by employing snobery at retail and distributor level. This works!!!! Incredibly, the more aloof they are, the more the insecure consumer wants Rolex to accept them. So they buy a Daytona, and hope that now, the salesman will smile at him! Hey...this is Hong Kong/China/Moscow/Singapore....isn't that weird???

Rolex may not entertain your old Rolex. If you can't afford to buy a new one...errr.
 
Rolex does not entertain questions about what they do. They use "mystery" as a tool to entice. But looking at the recent Prince they offered, the one with the seethru caseback. I was in 2005, very impressed, but in 2006..when I saw the real thing...heck, the movt is a derivative of...

I own a rare (among others) Rolex Prince made for Robinson's Singapore in 1923 (approx), for my grandad. Rolex refuses to help restore it.
Imagine...if I, in Singapore, can't get Rolex to restore, or help restore, my Prince...how much more difficult an ordinary man on the street???

Rolex is a great brand, that happens to be making watches as a business. These are good watches. But in watchmaking??? They are like fancy cosmetic surgeons, with BIG names...but can't save your life if you had an accident on the highway. They don't practice any medicine.

Omega?

First of all I'm a huge fan of both brands, as I'm sure you guys know I love Omega.  But Bernard, to say that 'Rolex doesn't practice watchmaking' is not only demonstrably false but downright misleading.  They happen to make what's probably the most flat out well constructed, reliable, durable, watchmaker friendly, longevity oriented chronograph movement in existence and while their improvements to their movements are incremental, they certainly represent a committment to genuine watchmaking values; I'm a little surprised to hear you suggest otherwise.

And you surely can't be suggesting that Rolex is alone in the employment of snobbery as a marketing strategy.  I'm not in the mood to name names but I have been treated, as an anonymous walk-in individual just expressing an interest in their timepieces, with absolutely contemptible hauteur by salesmen for an awful lot of modern Swiss brands with a hell of a lot less to offer than Rolex.  (On the other hand, the folks at the Piaget boutique were very nice to me last summer when I walked in in full hiking kit, in August, wearing a G-Shock, and was very politely invited to evalutate the Emperador Tourbillon.  That was a refreshing change of pace.)

Omega has a very, very rich history that speaks for itself and they need bow to no one; they have a relationship to chronometric excellence, to aerospace use, marine navigation, etc. etc. which most other brands would give their eyeteeth for and for heaven's sake, do we need to diminish their achievement by suggesting that we need to tilt at the absolute worst kind of internet horological straw man, Rolex bashing, for heaven's sake, to praise Omega? 

And I'm completely confused by your remarks about Omega and 'glamour,' a good bit of their marketing strategy is based on it!  It takes away nothing from the quality of the watches, but I don't think they signed Nicole Kidman because of her propensity for staying up late going over observatory time trial temperature compensation tables.

Let's by all means give Omega the praise they so richly deserve, especially at this most interesting juncture in their history.  But let's not do violence to reality and common sense to do it.

Jack

I mean no malice, no disrespect for Rolex.

It is the SAME way Mercedes Benz and BMW work here, in OUR business environment. SE Asia. Altho by 2003, Mercedes began to adjust.

Likewise Richard Mille at the Mandarin Hotel Spore.

Cultivated and intentional snobbery.

It won't work in Paris or New York. The culture is probably different.

I am actually giving some accolade to Rolex for being the incredible business machine it is.

Putting it this way...if anyone asked me which company to invest in(not buy watches)...I may say Rolex.

But my personal definitions of contribution to watchmaking takes into account what they do TODAY and how they treat customers TODAY.

When yesteryear, they needed customers...they were nice. Now...in SE Asia, where they are kings, customers have to earn Rolex respect for them to get service.

. . .and I certainly would be outside my competence to comment on customer experiences with Rolex after sales service in SEA so I must fall silent on the subject.  I'd just rather praise Omega than blame Rolex is all I think both companies bring a lot to the table and I think right now, Omega is in the middle of an extremely interesting period in its history.

They took a HUGE chance after all on the co-axial escapement.  I mean here's this exotic thing that shows enormous promise- better stability of rate, etc. etc. but it's a huge unknown and going into it, how do you know how it's going to perform when industrially produced, over thousands or tens of thousands of iterations?  Omega has put an absolutely unprecedented amount of time energy and effort into some serious watchmaking R and D to get the co-axial into production and then to continuously refine it, and while the greater complexity of the escapement may produce more challenges in manufacturing and adjustment there are an awful lot of anecdotal accounts of absolutely stellar performance in the field.  The launch of the HourVision project was spectacular but should not obscure the fact IMVHO that not only is it a demonstration of Omega's committment to continuous improvement, it's also a continuation of a tradtion of committment to chronometry which is as old as the company itself.

In general I could not agree with you more that what builds real loyalty is a client centered orientation towards service.  A fine watch, whether by Omega, Rolex, or Roger Smith is often a very special purchase and a company- any company- that complacently thinks it can forever disregard client centered service betrays the most interesting part of watchmaking, which is the sense of human warmth and care radiated by a machine for which its maker has a genuine passion.  A company that knows this, whether it's three people in a workshop on the isle of Man or three hundred people in a factory floor in Geneva will do well, a company that ignores it. . . . well, that's an opportunity for someone else, wouldn't you agree?

Jack

The current Mrs MTF, who hails from North Wales, also 'gets' the same feeling about the incredible business machine that is Rolex.
She will NOT (no no never) let me have one. Shock! Horror! Probe! Why would I want one? It would be going back against my word.

From childhood, I chanted the mantra, "I will not buy a Mercedes Benz or a Rolex" just because of their image; I did not want the objects of desire that showed the avarice of the worst people...and ...well..the products were boring and ugly too  
Now, Now - there is no need to reach for your 'word processors' (I am THAT old) with chagrin; I am sure saints and 'good' people also bought those brands. It's just an image thing - make a few bucks - buy a steel Date-Just, make a million bucks - get a solid gold Day-Date mit President bracelet and Mercedes S-class. You could say the same for any luxury brand but Rolex just churns out s-o-o-o many of those chunky things, you know - them Rolex-thingies!

But wait! There is a chink in my armour (pun intended - I'm chinese)!   I went C-R-A-Z-Y  and bought my first Mercedes (after 3 consecutive SAABs) before my real mid-life crisis. I call it my mMLC (mini mid life crisis). It was a CLK series 1 mit supercharger, that has since been replaced twice - Jaguar XK8 and MB CLK series 2. But all three cars were beautiful - so, there is hope - if Rolex makes a pretty and high horology product.................

Regards, MTF

"Mercedes Benz" - Janice Joplin

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won’t you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a night on the town ?
I’m counting on you, Lord, please don’t let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

That’s it!
This message has been edited by MTF on 2007-02-19 21:17:48

When Bernard mentioned he has difficulty in getting our local Rolex centre
to work on his Rolex Prince, this particular piece of information from one
of the blogs I've read came to mind.



The letter should be in Spanish... and the translation is extracted from the
blog:

- That by law, Rolex is only required to have and guarantee supplies for
watches that are up to 25 years old.
- His Rolex was 36 years old and even if it where to be serviced they would
not give it an International Warranty.
- Even though they serviced the watch this time, they would not be able to
service it any further due to a lack of parts.
- In the future they would gladly refer him to some "other" repair service
that would repair the watch.

* Jack, I hope I didn't violate the forum's rule.

Kong

. . .it is what it is and as long as the matter under discussion is brand service policy and not a lawsuit, fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers,

Jack

my Dad wore a Square Dress Omega with an integrated mesh bracelet and always bragged that 'Omega was the finest brand available' ! My Grandfather carried a Howard Pocketwatch and said the same thing about his Howard, which was one of the older (circa 1863) . As the oldest Son I have the Howard and my younger brother has the Omega.

My Dad had been a Marine in WW2 and wore his War Model Benrus Watch until my Mother bought him the Omega in the early sixties.

In my house growing up, Omega was King !

Kurt

that when I bought my first Rolex (GMT in 1977) my Dad couldn't understand why I would want the Rolex over an Omega or Longines. To him the Omega was just the better Watch.

KPB