Horological Meandering

(I posted the following in the Breguet Forum, and I also post it here to have more interaction on the Winders issue...)
Not to use a winder, if a collection has many complicated watches, will leave the oils of the timepiece standing, and to service all these watches, with the time it takes the watch companies to service the watches in the recommended intervals, that is not recommended...
To use one, one must depend on Orbita's database only, with silence from the companies that sell these expensive watches...
The only winder that I saw that winds an automatic watch, with reserve de marche which shows the measure of winding, in 3/4 of the full winding, is the module of Underwood (London)...( half an hour CW, half an hour CCW and 3 hours standing )
Maybe the moderators of the Purists can put their considerable weight in asking Breguet and other watch companies about winders and TPD for their models...
Tassos

It woiuld be nice if the Brands gave us some support on best practices for care and storage of our watches.

For those of you who did not catch Tassos's thread you can follow it by clicking here

nt

Please elaborate.  Coming from you it makes us all stand  to attention.

Are we really better off not keeping our watches on winders.  Once you have 5, 6 or more setting them gets to be a big chore.

Is it really as simple as that.

Wanting to know more???

Thanks

Bill

it's not that big a chore to set a watch before wearing it if it's just time and date.  to me a winder is like leaving your car idling all the time so you don't have to turn the key.

But I cannot imagine how anyone could argue that keeping a watch would and running all the time would not put extra wear on it.

Obviously there is the concern of lubricants pooling up if left in one position for TOO long, but I would think if it's a watch you're wearing relatively frequently (once a month or so) you're probably best off just winding it and setting before use.

Hi Bill,

The question is very complex and obviously there are many opinions around about it, but my generalized opinion is that winfees should only be used in extreme situations (very complicated calendar watches or very sedentary individuals) or with extreme care. I'll try to write more about this soon.

_john

i wouldnt have thought they would damage a watch as quite a few top end pieces come with winding boxes. Patek are one example as are breguet i believe. would they do it if it caused harm? their reputation is everything so they surely wouldnt jeopardise it would they?

we all want the best for out watches so need guidance from the makers

Feet into the fire. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Personally as a lazy watch snob I use a programmable winder. Then again I rarely keep watches long enough to worry about long term service issues.

Thanks, Mike.

As the number of watch owners having one or more automatic watches continues to grow, one of the most frequently asked questions is “Do I need an automatic watch winder”? To begin, I must point out that, despite the fact that my company has been a pioneer in introducing professional watch winders to consumers, I have publicly stated several times on the watch forums that they are NOT an absolute necessity.

Nevertheless, here are five reasons and different needs for having and using a watch winder:

1. For an inactive person who needs supplementary winding
2. People who don't wear their watch ALL DAY long
3. To keep more than one automatic watch always on time
4. To prevent resetting of complicated calendar watches
5. To keep a watch collection live and well

Let's look at some concerns watch owners have about winders:

QUESTION: “I'm sure there is a good reason for watch winders. But, I'm a little puzzled by their purpose other than for testing. It just seems to me that a given watch only has a certain number of hours of life in it before it must be overhauled and serviced, right? So, why not slow the process down while you're not wearing it? Is there a detrimental effect on the watch? What about new watches at the jeweler? They can sit for months before being sold. I've never seen a winder in the window keeping that new watch wound and waiting for me to buy it”.

ANSWER: Watch winders are beneficial for those who own more than one automatic watch. They are particularly useful for automatic perpetual calendar watches which can be complicated and a nuisance to reset once stopped. More important, all watches should be kept wound and running for their own mechanical health to ensure proper lubrication and cut down on wear. If a watch sits still for a long period of time, the lubricant tends to clump. When that happens, it can have an adverse effect on the timekeeping accuracy of a watch with poor amplitude of the balance wheel. The reason that some, even the finest brand, timepieces do not perform up to par is probably due to the effect on a watch sitting in a jewelry store for long periods of time in a non-running condition.

QUESTION: “If an automatic watch is not worn for several days, is it better to wind it in a watch winder, rather than manually turning the crown every morning? Or, does it make no difference which way the watch is wound”?

ANSWER: Automatic watches are designed with two interacting sets of winding systems, one is the manual winding mechanism and the other the automatic winding unit. Current typical automatics have a sandwiched double reverser wheel which contain miniature clicks inside. These reverser wheels allow the motion of the user's arm to build power reserve from the oscillating rotor through the winding system indirectly to the mainspring which drives the escapement.

Manually winding an automatic mechanism "on a steady basis" can put unnecessary rapid stress on the sensitive auto reverser wheels possibly damaging the tiny internal clicks. The torque pressure resulting from manual winding of automatic watches is not made for, day-in day-out, manual winding, especially if the watch is not in a pristine new or overhauled condition. Also, most automatic watches today have screw-down crowns. Using such crowns on a steady basis for manual winding will result in a shorter life for these spring-loaded crowns. The daily pressure and tension will break the posts off sooner or later requiring replacement of the crown and also the stretched / worn O-ring tube gasket. You then run a greater risk of allowing moisture to penetrate the case without your awareness and knowledge.

To summarize, while watch winders are NOT an absolute necessity, they are a great convenience in keeping watches on the correct time and date and also help to extend the general running condition of them.

Jack Freedman
This message has been edited by jfsuperior on 2008-01-24 14:26:04

are stressing the fact that the watch companies MUST say what to do in these cases... People who own 10 or 20 automatic and complicated watches can not wind them every 2 days or so... people who have the watch bug are getting more and more.. That Patek and Breguet are furnishing their high end models with winders is an indication but not a direct thesis... So I return to the proposition that the PuristS must use the considerable clout of their moderators to oblige the representatives of the most known watch makers to post directives about the correct use of watch winders....
Tassos

Hello All,

This is clearly not a cut and dried discussion and I certainly respect the opinion Jack expressed and his knowledge and experience even if I ultimately disagree with his conclusions.

To me, the argument really must be broken down in some respect with regards to what one is attempting to optimize.  If one's goal is merely to achieve the longest service interval possible (and due to the fact that movement servicings are typically fixed in price without regard for the amount of "normal" movement wear and the number of movement components that must be replaced, this is the same as keeping maintenance costs to a minimum), then using an automatic winder that is properly programmed for the watch may be the best alternative. If however, one is trying to prolong the life of the watch and all the internal components as much as possible, I don't think using a winder is the best option. 

My reasoning is as follows:

I agree with Jack that watches that sit for extended periods of time, particularly in a jeweler's showcase, are likely to need service sooner than otherwise.  My opinion is that this is related at least as much to the heat of the display lamps as it is to sitting in one place, but in my experience, these watches are not likely to run well, but they're not likely to be significantly damaged either.  Usually the oil has simply gummed up and is bogging down the escapement, the rotor, one or more of he train wheels or the reversers and the watch either stops or runs poorly.  A good cleaning and fresh lubrication is all it takes to make them right as rain.  Of course I'm talking in generalizations and I certainly haven't conducted any studies into the various mechanisms being discussed, so take this as my gut feeling and with a grain of salt.

I have however seen a fair number of watches with heavy wear on the oscillating weight bearing surfaces, the reversers or other automatic winding train components, the barrel arbor or inside of the barrel and mainspring that were pretty clearly caused by automatic winder use.  When you see a watch with that kind of wear and virtually no cosmetic damage on the case and /or you know the watch is not very old or was recently serviced, the culprit is pretty clear.  Of course some watches are more susceptible to automatic wear than others and some winders are a lot more likely to cause thise type of wear, but letting the watch sit in a drawer will not cause this wear regardless.

Leaving a watch running may very well keep the lubricants supple and active for a longer period of time, and may prolong the service interval in the sense that the watch will perform reasonably for a longer period of time, but it will undeniably be suffering more internal wear in the process.  Leaving corrosion out of the equation entirely, a watch that is running will of course suffer more wear than one that is sitting.

Under ideal circumstances, the difference may be moot.  Given a watch with a very robust and properly lubricated automatic system on a variable angle winder set for the right amount of turns per day, the amount of wear incurred may well be neglible and utterly offset by the gains of an extended service interval.  The vast majority of winders have a fixed spindle angle however, so they grind away hour after hour and day after day at the exact same points on the rotor bearing surfaces. (The winders that watchmakers use to test automatic watches turn the watches end over end at the same time that they rotate about a central axis, thus turning the watch through every position possible more or less.)

On top of that, they are almost always set  to too many turns per day (and the cheapest ones are abysmal in this regard), so the poor mainspring and barrel are being worn at a rate that is completely incommensurate with just about any level of real world activity possible on someone's wrist.  A spindle that turns a watch anywhere near vertical will put a slow, persistent stress on the automatic winding system that does not closely approximate anything a watch is designed to withstand "in the wild".

Jack is absolutely right that the act of handwinding an automatic watch can be stressful on the automatic bits as well (depending on the design of the movement), but to me, the potential for damage is not all that great as long as one is not winding the watch every day (I don't recommend keeping all one's watches running all the time either by automatic winding or manual winding). 

The special case of watches with fancy calendars or celestial displays that require significant time to set  via pushers or heavy crown manipulation is the exception to the rule in my opinion.  The possibility of doing serious damage to the movement by pushing the wrong pusher at the wrong time when setting your perpetual calendar before your cup of coffee in the morning is very real in my opinion and completely offsets any damage an automatic winder might inflict on the movement.  Of course one should still seek to set the winder to the absolute minimum number of turns to keep the watch running however.

All just my humble opinion of course.

_john

Thanks John for you expert opinion.

So I guess I may start to think about simply using the winder as a show case and or set all the winders to the minimum setting of 500-600 TPD as the happy medium.   

I also have a winder that run once every 15 minutes doing just one revolution and then gravity and a counter weight rocks the watch back and forth for a few half rounds.  Would you consider this one safe.  Or does it simply boil down to systematic and identical repetitive motion that is the culprit of wear and stress.

Oh well back to the drawing board for me,

Thank you once again for your insight.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I didn't mean to make the situation sounds black and white at all.  I think a reasonable person could consciously decide that the longest service interval and lowest overall maintenance costs were their top priorities and use winders with some care to positive effect. 

From the sounds of it, the one you've got might be a good way to do such a thing.  A variable spindle angle (like the six-head winder Harry posted in the thread on magnetism just up the page) set to the proper number of turns per day would be my first choice, but one that turns with some clever/creative intermittence might be number two.  What is most critical in either regard is the number of turns per day though and the minimum number you can get away with to keep the watch running is best.

_john

the most logical post on the subject, in my opinion... Well expressed... In our ancient Greek heritage there is the saying "Pan Metron Ariston" which mean more or less" that good measure is always the best solution"...
But I would like to know why the big watch makers don't say a word about a problem that surely is in many collectors minds...
Tassos

Hi Tassos,

The watch companies I've worked for have on occasion said to specific customers that the company does not recommend watch winders, while also occasionally recommending them to customers that seem to have demonstrated that they are too sedentary to keep an otherwise well functioning automatic running. 

To make an official recommendation one way or another or with any technical advice about turns per day or whatever is kind of a lose/lose proposition.  If a customer uses a winder and it damages his/her watch, we're on the hook.  If we publically state that we don't recommend winders, we're making enemies of the winder companies and/or inviting the question, "Well brand A gives away winders with their watches, why are company B's watches so delicate that they can't work on an automatic winder?"

The safest bet is to not say anything except in specific instances.

_john

... the best thing I can see, since, while I can not describe myself as sedentary, there is a problem of time if I want to wind and check about 15 to 20 automatic watches, is to find the least TPD that keeps the watches running but not much stressing themselves...

I see why is so damn difficult for the watch companies to say yes or no to the watch winders...  On the other hand, the companies that provide winders for their expensive and complicated wathes they silently give their sanction, at least to the best winders companies...

Thanks again

Tassos

I believe that if a watch is put on the winder too often, there will be more severe wear and tear on the parts.

In my case, even for my perpetual calendar, I don't put on the winder.  After all, it will take less than 5 minutes to reset it and it is fun to do it.

 

Regards

Ling

Thank you to everyone for the info!

I visited the PP headquarters in Geneva and asked this exact question to a craftsman in the minute repeater room. After a few seconds of consideration the answer I was given was:

If a watch isn't worn for an extended duration and would otherwise sit, it's fine to use a winder. If there isn't an extended sedentary period and you don't mind resetting the watch, a winder is probably not necessary.

I've had my IWC perpetual on an Orbita winder for nine years and three months (more or less).

When I bought it, the watch was a year behind and it took hours to wind it forwards. I don't want to do that again.

I suppose I wear it about 20 days a year, perhaps 25. And it spends a few weeks in the safe too, then I have to set it again.

I would be happy for Jack or John to service it now and tell me how it looks inside!

Cazalea

No message body

I'd love for him to snap some super-macro pics of the rotor bearing and automatic gear train.  Heck, I'd even come over to his shop and take the pictures.

Post edited due to commercial nature.

**** Mod team *****B