Horological Meandering

They are trying to persuade us that this is advanced technology!

They do not tell us that two of the most beautiful and DIFFICULT to be produced pieces are going to be replaced by ugly-black-pressed-mass produced components.  So, they are going to save a lot of money and we are going to pay much higher prices to get this "advanced technology".

They even skeletonize the bridges (PP) or put magnifying glasses on them   (JLC) to show the silicon made escape wheels and anchors!  (Fortunately, because that way one can see and compare...).

And ok, if the watch is the JLC extreme lab, i can understand and accept it. It is a totally new concept aiming at the elimination of oiling and using everywhere new materials and technologies. It is not a trading trick but a serious effort.

But for the other-normal production- watches, there is a difference. I wonder what is the meaning of using silicon if i have to oil ten other parts inside the movement.  Couldn't i oil the anchor pallets at the same time ? They tell us that the friction is lower. I  doubt about it until i read some serious articles.(not the brands' announcements of course!)

They talk about  "advanced technologies". Dear sirs of high horology brands if i wanted advanced technology i would buy a japanese watch and i i would pay much much less. Can you  really compete  whith japan in advanced technology?

Craft, mechanism innovation and finish, that's what high horology primarily is. Advanced technology(as well as desigh) comes second and is welcome only if it is to solve serious technical problems without disturbing the main reasons we  buy a high horology watch.Except if the only serious problem for you is production cost.

So, i will stay with my unadvanced, beautifully made and finished anchors and escape wheels, and you, of course can keep walking...   WHERE?

I suppose to a totally silicon made black-pressed-"advanced" watch mechanism.

Congatulations but i won't take....thanks!

(Apologise for my poor English)

providing it's like this, circa 1913:

blued-steel hairspring, Guillaume balance, diamond endstone, counterpoised anchor, swan-neck regulator:

the silicium escapement in my Ulysee Nardin Freak and other silicium parts i've seen used by UN are not 'ugly pressed black things', but very transluscent laser cut pieces of man made crystal( i think thats what it is anyway ). a silicium hairspring is a work of art.

me thinks that you may be confusing the silicon used in straps ( which i agree is black and ugly ) with silicium which is very very expensive to produce and a great advance in watch technology. even patek are using it.

i will defend Silicium to the hilt.

Graham

Hello goldmadias!

Silicium is amazing stuff, high tech wonder if you ask me.  As Graham has noted, Ulysse Nardin has produced a great advancement in watch technology. 

It starts out as this:

Then they make into this (A proprietary insanely expensive process):

Just to get these tiny parts:

-MW

No message body

First some clarifications:
1.  As used in watches, we are talking about chemically pure Silicon(Si), the second most common element on earth, most commonly found bound up with Oxygen to form quartz, (Si02).
2.  The Si is grown into large cylinders, called boules, which are then sliced into thin wafers for making parts.  All of this is the same tech that was perfected for making microchips, and is done in industrial quantities all over the world.
3.  The parts are designed using modern CAD software, by very talented designers and engineers, and then cut from the Si wafers using a combination of the photo-lithography that is used in chip manufacture and some techniques developed more specifically for watch parts.  The parts designs are a modification of the lever escapement as it has been used for the last 150 years*.  This is the generic technique, UN uses something different for their InnoVision where they grow some of the parts on cut Nickel pieces, and I don't know anything more about that.

This is the classic example of a "modern" technology.  A large amount of money and brain power is needed to develop the technology, refine it, and bring it to market.  Once that is all done, however, the parts can be mass produced almost perfectly, easily with sub-micron tolerances.  So it makes these watch more exclusive for now, as companies are going to keep the technology protected by patents, and have to recoup the RD costs, but eventually the technology could trickle down into lower-end products and loose it's cache.  A similar thing happened with plastic, initially it was this fantastic new material, celluloid was used in very high-end jewelery in the 1920s, but soon it became less exclusive and lost all value.

* none of this applies to the non-lever escaped watches from UN or GP's new movement.  They have developed a new form of escapement that uses the unique properties of the Si to make something impossible without it...

Of course, these are my thoughts, and I could, perhaps, be wrong. 
A

Umm, to be a pedant, Iron is the most abundant element on earth....

Other than that, I completely agree with your comments, Aaronm.

Silicon, in the form that escapements take, is no "insanely expensive process" (per MW), though no doubt development of a new escapement system to take advantage of it, is.(per Aaronm)

I tend to like new technology, but like all claims, the onus of proof is on the producer. And what are the claims? Less lubrication at the escape wheel? It's black? We get to pretend that not only are we traditionalists, but we are on the

 

I said it was the second most abundent
A

Oooh, the bitterness of having your pedantry turned against you!

Silicon is the third!

Iron, Oxygen, Silicon....

Of course, if you're talking the crust (which is less than 1% of the mass of the Earth) then yes, you're right.

 

 

Apparently somewhere along the way I forgot the crusty part....

A

Hi guys

thank you all for your replies. I would like to state that i have nothing against advanced technology but  only against "advanced technology" especially if i have serious suspicions that it is used mainly for the benefit of the watch industries.

Technology is so useful everywhere and of course it has offered a lot of things to high horology  too. But i would like to ask what this specific technology has to offer .Is it going to eliminate lubrication? No. Is it going to help the longevity of some watch parts. No way. Is it going to lower the friction? Read some serious articles to see that friction is higher than a lubricated  combination steel-ruby.Is it going to help industries to produce thousants of these pieces,ready to be used at extremely low cost  without the need of any  costly finish? YES.

Is this what we need in microchips? Yes. Is this what we need in a  mechanical watch? Give your answer.

Personally, i am affraid that is going to happen what aaronm said whith plastic and jewels. The tresure will be soon turn into dust  and the industries wll become much welthier at a very short time .Concerning us, we are going to stay looking sorrowfully our platinum watches  with the unattractive silicon parts inside them.

No message body

Dear  LVT

I will give you a clue: Go to the official jlc website/le club /discuss with Jaw about the new master tradition line.

The coefficient of friction between silicon parts according jlc is about 0.16  while between  steel-ruby  is only 0.13

That's why jlc decided  (how kind of them !) to cover the silicon parts with diamond nanocrystals (really advanced technology) in order to reduce coefficient of friction to 0.08!

The only thing the don't say is  how long this diamond coating is going to last. For ever?  Or after some years we wiil have to choose between sending these  pieces back for recoating (replacing?)  or returning back to the 0.16 coefficient of friction.

At least the article gives us some numbers -which i concider positive -instead of  stories. Isn't it much easier to simply  oil again our everlasting beautiful rubies at a very small charge?

 

For luxury product like watch, we are require the made-one-piece-at-time process ( like hand made, CNC ...), not the mass process . Every technology would be cheaper in time . I do not known much about the making process of silicon, if the silicon part need the hand finishing , or intricate hand assembly , the value of silicon part will keep highly.

Just some of thought , IMHO

Agree with Graham

The 5450 is the culmination of many years of research - a truly fabulous piece.

I am seriously considering the Freak next.

...the freak would be impressive with or without silicon parts?

Yes the Freak is indeed a very collectable watch.

Stunning design concept with innovative use of silicium - I am now ordering one.

Thanks Graham

                              This piece of wisdom couldn't have come at a better time.

                             Perhaps you got me wrong about diamonds, I would prefer watches with no stones.

                              HAGWE!

This message has been edited by VPREGULATOR on 2009-01-24 17:57:46

so why not new materials, provided they contribute to a better functioning movement. How many parts by perventage are not made by CNC machines?

Where is the performance gain?