Horological Meandering

Hi All,

Nobody would argue that this site is a great promotional medium for watch manufacturers......and also a great educational site for budding enthusiasts...and from the sometimes quick response of makers, when a problem with a watch has been mentioned here ....nobody could argue that makers do not monitor the site frequently.

But with some recent occurrences about quality, and service delays, or needs to return watches repeatedly for correct adjustments.....maybe this site should feature a 'Window" along the header which gives consumers a chance to voice their concerns about common problems with different models.....and makers.

In recent times we have seen watches falling apart from the use of glued parts, and many watches needing to be returned for corrective service because the initial service was not satisfactory, to my own experience of an expected turnaround of 8 months for a relatively minor repair.

This is not good enough for a 'Purist' product, and often products which are featured on the masthead of this site.

After all, without consumers this site would not exist, and without consumers, the makers would not exist.

I think it is unreasonable for a watch from a major brand to take 8 months for a repair.

I think many incidents have been aired here which need collective grouping to allow buyers to get an insight, as to which companies perform, and which do not.....both before the sale and after.

After all, what incentive is there to buy off a maker with a couple of hundred years of heritage, if the same maker takes more than half a year to fix a minor problem under warranty?

The internet is a magnificent thing and provides excellent world wide exposure to many makers products….but it also allows, for the first time in history, for problems to be realized by consumers in a true real life time line …I also think that if situations like this were public knowledge, then buyers would be hesitant to lean towards such a brand that was lacking in responsibility to their existing customers or new potential market.

Bottom line is the consumer, who keeps the industry alive, would be guaranteed of fair and realistic representation and service.

The end result would see makers lifting their game and providing real and quality service to match their quality product......or fall by the wayside through their inefficiency.

Possibly the window could be called the 'Consumer Complaints"...with the provision that any complaint must be accompanied by a Model and Serial Number, so as to give the "Maker" the chance to dispute any bogus claims.

Either way, if we are true "Watchaholics"...and more importantly true "Purists" ...then we need a balanced opportunity, to not only admire and appreciate the great achievements of the horological master companies......but to view the good and bad of what is offering....for lets face it, nothing is perfect...but some brands are more perfect than others..... in both manufacture and service.

Who else feels that there is a need for balance.

kindest regards to all,
Jack

 

 

This message has been edited by MTF on 2009-04-26 09:34:11

but as we all know the moderating here will represent big issue
lot of abuse is possible
it would be very hard to discriminate between real deals and cuckoo eggs
anyway let us bring balance to the force
Sincerely
Damian

As someone who has just been told I have a 6 month wait for my watch to be repaired (i've waited 10 weeks to hear it), I would LOVE to have somewhere to air my opinions, but I fear the only people reading would be other unfortunate souls like myself!

The fact of the matter is, the after sales service of 90% of our beloved watch companies is disgustingly inadequate. It seems the more you pay for a watch, the worse your experience will be should anything go wrong with it. Simply unacceptable.

I'm sure we've all at one time or another emailed one of the big brands comlpaining about our treatment and what's changed? Nothing!

Unfortunately I don't have the solution, but I don't think this is it either. I think if we all posted our experiences (good or bad) in the relevant brand forums as we have on occassion in the past, then perhaps the right people will read it, potential customers.

Dan

if I was buying something and I see a COMPLAINT section in the forum tab...hell, i would want to read that...so that I wont get trapped in the same hole...

One thing I'm learning really really fast...right now I'm in the market for a super car (US$-6 figures)...Dealers give me sales pitches that cater to my ego. Since i'm now in the stage of my life when i'm smarter, i tend to fire back w/ possible scenarios...so, i tell the dealer... what you are telling me is if i buy this aston martin dbs, i will feel like i'm james bond...now what if i have flat tire, or if i take it on a really long drive (out of state) and it breaks down, what if i'm out of town and some malfunction happens???????what should i do????

the guy tells me, he'll give me his cell phone no# and if i'm a member of AAA (US thing...) i should call them, so they can tow me...I said....tow me where???? I walked out.

So now I've narrowed down my choices to mercedes amg, porsche, and corvette...many dealers across the country, fairly reliable, has ON-Star or Tele-Aid...I've come to realize that i really do not need or want a $400k+ Lamborghini, Spyker, etc... even if I can afford it; so that i can just drive it around the few blks from where i live. I'd rather buy the $90k-$150k sports car and save the $250k so that I can use it to buy this new limited edition watch that I have my eye on....

Now, you see what i mean...

This message has been edited by ppcollector on 2009-04-23 19:53:00

I hear what you say, but posting on the relative forum allows the problems to be lost as new posts quickly push older posts back

It would be nice if buying an Xyz Brand to be able see the makers track record in both service and problems associated with a particular model.

Would certainly see the makers improving their service etc.

Kindest regards,
Jack

Hi again Dan,

What brand are you waiting 8 months for....Mine is a Breguet, and I mentioned it on the Breguet site when I put it with the AD back in february.......and like you a week or so ago I was advised I should see it in August....like you I expected a month or two might be expected.....

But as I mentioned before , if it only on the Dedicated Forum it gets lost.

Kindest regards,
Jack

I strongly agree, quality is somewhat hard to come by, especially these days when the economy is tanked.

High end manufacturers are cutting back and streamlining. Imagine during the good times when they are already screwing up with mediocre and unreliable products.

Forget service, the amount of pieces that breaks which the skeleton crew will need to deal with. It's lucky that it only took you 8 months. I know a couple of people whrein they had to bring the watch back to the manufacturer (US to Switzerland) and these were not cheap watches. These watches were in the $350k-$...low $400k range; complex pieces. Its not like they could just swap it and the AD just gives you a new one and call it a day. There is no other piece...thats what "Limited Edition" means...everything about it is "Limited"....

It's getting bad out there. One thing I'm learning from 4-5+yrs of collecting. There are reliable brands and there are off-shoots, that just dont work (breaks, issues, financial stability of the company, etc...)

Sometimes you just want to vent and/or advise other PuristPRO members what to "watch" for or "watch" after (no pun intended). It really gets frustrating sometimes when all you want is for this stupid thing to work.

Also, sometimes we are the stupid ones because our feelings gets a hold of our rationale and we insist on buying these pieces...even when we know tit's somewhat exotic...( "Exotic"="Exotic" problems)

hey, mo money...mo problems as Pdiddy says. Like my wife always says, keep it simple...complicated things end up becoming complicated problems...so after she says that I don't know what to say and I do my Bugs Bunny response...You're right dear...abadi, abadi, abadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I should stop here before my temper boils and start cursing....

Just my opinion.

thanks for reading

ppcollector

If you say something publicly about a manufacturer that the manufacturer doesn't like, the manufacturer is likely to advise you of the fact using lawyers. I think that if a forum acted specifically to facilitate that type of complaining it would just be asking for trouble from the manufacturers. As it is, we have a forum in which grievances can be aired if discussed responsibly while holding down the risk that the discussion will get out of hand.

Hi Mkvc

I don't see that we should be living in fear of getting trouble with the manufacturers Lawyers because we discuss faults or perceived slow service with watches that we bought new from their Authorized Dealers and these watches are giving us grief.

If that is the kind of business that Horology has become ...then I will turn to a new interest.

Like all of you I could buy my watches on the grey market or from non AD or second hand at a fraction of the price.

The reason I pay more and buy from an AD is to do the right thing by the industry..... and in return I expect the right thing to be done to me and if I am unlucky enough to have a problem, that it will be fixed in a satisfactory and timely manner.

Fact is I have a Breguet Marine Big Date 5817 which is under warranty and the Rotor decided to "Stick" on occasions. The serial No. is 2236 and my Ad, from whome I bought the watch tells me to expect the watch back in August. I placed it with them in February and I think a week to get from the Ad to switzerland, a week to be assessed through any internal paper trail and a week to pull the back off and check the watch would be fair.

Then when fixed, let them put it on a test bench for a month if they like and another week to airfreight it back to the Ad and that runs at around two months.

I would think that is a fair time, but if the AD is correct...and the watch takes another four months then I have to wonder why.

I mentioned on the Breguet Forum that I would keep cyber friends advised of the progress and I willl drop a Post here when it comes back.

If Breguet read these Posts and want to give an explanation as to why it takes so long then I am sure we would all welcome their comment.

Who Knows...may be the watch will come back next week and we will all be happy. May be the AD got things wrong?

'Time" will tell.

Kindest regards to all,
Jcak

As you know, there have recently been a lot of attempts to make fora and similar sites responsible for the content posted by their members.

If we were going to have such a forum, I think it would have to be limited, for example, so that only persons having already made at least 100 posts over perhaps at least a three-month period would be qualified to post. That would probably weed out most of the irresponsible ones.

i would suggest that we have a MOD who we could contact with an issue and the mod could contact the manufacturer in question with the complaint/ problem, once it is acknowledged by both parties of a legitimate issue which needs to be addressed then it can be shared on the forum for all to see.

The worst thing that could happen is for people to be expressing strong views against a manufacturer which ultimately could be incorrect or fraudulent, therefore this needs to be controlled with extreme care and caution, this is OMO

Garry

I think many manufacturer PR department must be lurking somewhere in this forum on regular basis. They would work out the problem and report the pleasant ending on this forum too. I think Complain should be be posted immediately but rather go thru the moderator filtering for any abusing language and so on. To help seperate the genuine one and the fake report, IMO tha particular person should be a registered member on this forum for at least 3 months and also provide a scan of their watch repair receipt. I think that would help a bit.

But I definitely agree that the manufacturer has produce too much than what they can repair (without excessive waiting period of course). Many has to be sent back to Geneva or something and I thot FEDEX or DHL has a one day delivery service across the world?

NT

"You are old, father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head --
Do you think, at your age, it is right?

Dear all,

[sigh]  This has been debated much-ly.

If this were the only thing we do in Life and had unlimited resources, on the surface, some of this makes sense. We could even appoint somone as Facilitator to "Make It So", as Capt J-L Picard would say. 

But look deeper and there are problems.

Why open a cesspool for the disenchanted to plunge with the disenfranchised?  There is enough negativity in our lives  -- don't take away our make-believe safe haven where everything is Perfect.     Remember that PuristS is about searching for perfection in an imperfect world.  We know it is an imperfect world.  We know shit happens to some people, some of the time. The aggrieved have very loud and persistent voices  --  that we have discovered over the years of moderating "stuff'.  The satisfied are the silent majority, by definition. Occasionally, we even get the well endowed who are happy to share their good experiences.

Let's say that Brand X makes (and sells) 10,000 watches of one model. Imagine the return rate (for all reasons) is 5%. That's 500 pieces. Assume the 80:20 rule of generally happy to unhappy people because people are like that; 100 Sad Sacks. Even though PuristSPro is a popular horology site, I do not presume that all 100 of those people even know of this site, let alone participate here. So maybe we get 1 or 2 who make the effort to rant. That is 1:10,000 sampling (it could be zero to 100). It then becomes like the prophet scene from 'The Life of Brian"....it must be true because everybody present.....heard the bad news. Nobody counts the 9,999 others who posted nothing; mostly because they are happy or nothing bad happened or it wasn't bad enough to rant (or rave) or they .....gulp....just don't visit our site   

We can never capture the denominator. Even with the best of intentions, it just becomes a rabble of he said she heard someone say......

Whinging Corner:

It does not help the individual because by the time they resort to public lynch-mob, they must have exhausted local and personal avenues. If you can't get it sorted out in person, it probably can't be sorted out by remote control on the WWW; don't hide in a crowd of baying wolves.

If they are of vindictive or mob-mentality to use this as primary resort.....er....we don't want them here.

It works the other way around too. Like the Emperor's Clothes, we have "built up" reputations of certain watch brands / makers that are eventually found out to be somewhat lacking "substance". This economic recession is turning into a magnifying glass.....er.....loupe, that people are inadvertantly using as a measure of 'quality'.

When I was younger and 'innocent', everything was black or white, Good vs Evil, Angels & Demons; I would have been The Facilitator. rushing around  --  tilting at windmills.

Now, I'm just tired.......

"You are old, father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head --
Do you think, at your age, it is right?

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."

"You are old," said the youth, "as I mentioned before,
And you have grown most uncommonly fat;
Yet you turned a back-somersault in at the door --
Pray what is the reason for that?"

"In my youth," said the sage, as he shook his grey locks,
"I kept all my limbs very supple
By the use of this ointment -- one shilling a box --
Allow me to sell you a couple?"

"You are old," said the youth, "and your jaws are too weak
For anything tougher than suet;
Yet you finished the goose, with the bones and the beak --
Pray, how did you manage to do it?"

"In my youth," said his fater, "I took to the law,
And argued each case with my wife;
And the muscular strength, which it gave to my jaw,
Has lasted the rest of my life."

"You are old," said the youth, "one would hardly suppose
That your eye was as steady as ever;
Yet you balanced an eel on the end of your nose --
What made you so awfully clever?"

"I have answered three questions, and that is enough,"
Said his father. "Don't give yourself airs!
Do you think I can listen all day to such stuff?
Be off, or I'll kick you down stairs.

 -- Lewis Carroll

This message has been edited by MTF on 2009-04-24 13:01:54

"We can never capture the denominator".

And using the Purists as a pressure-group seems to go against the general philosophy of the site.

 

There is a huge difference, and at the same time, very thin, too.

It depends on how the critics are made, if they are honestly made, or if critics are only expressed to bash a brand.

The danger is that that kind of window is of some attraction for people who don't have a respectful attitude.

This is a tough point, indeed.

I would say OK for the critics, no way for the bashing.

But is this a realistic point of view?

Best,

Nicolas

Hi Nicholas,

I agree that it must be fact only and not bashing...and this could be done.

Besides I don't see a lot of bashing on this site and because of the type and quality of product discussed here, and the price, I think it unlikly that "bashing" would be a great problem.

Most posts I read here are written by pretty responsible and informed people.

kindest regards,
Jack

I agree that we are lucky to see our members responsible and informed.

But I fear that if we create such a window, we will see new people that may not show the same virtues...

Best,

Nicolas

And this is the main reason why I am not for this idea.  We are opening up Pandora's box if we open this service feedback forum up.  Yes, we have a well behaved community but there will be some people who will get by all the guidelines of the forum and sneak their way in and voice their personal vendettas against brands which may not have given services up to their liking.

And once an incident arises, you would not believe how much time PPro management has to waste behind the scenes . 

- AT

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2009-04-25 08:50:25

it would be too hard to police, and once you open pandoras box it can bring much unnecessary head aches, not worth taking that chance IMO.

I think a Consumer Feedback section that allows for both positive and negative comments about watches and watch companies would be a valuable addition to this community.

The problem with a complaints-only feedback system is that it's difficult for the consumer to gauge if the complaints represent the norm or the exception. Ebay’s success is partly due to its positive/negative feedback system that allows buyers to make informed decisions, and encourages sellers to provide good products and services. I am just as apt to gravitate towards a product or company that receives positive reviews, as I am to shy away from a product or company that receives negative reviews.

By allowing for (and encouraging) positive comments in addition to negative ones in a central location, our community would be become better informed WIS’s, and watch manufactures would have an incentive to respond quickly and positively to posted complaints.

Regards,
Ira

Hi All,

It does not have to be a big thing…..a new section does not need a discussion board…. but simply a register for watches that are returned and the reason for needing to take them back to the AD and any action promulgated, such as repairs, or time to fix. Some are good story’s, some are not so good.

But of the 12 replies to this post, 11 are positive to having some form of balanced reference through a separate section….. and only one negative..... so there is certainly a desire to follow through with this.

The common question seems to be…’How to make it balanced and relate to fact ….and not become a bashing exercise’. I have not seen much bashing on this site by community members.... just gentlemanly behavior

Ira suggests a “Consumer Feedback” section and that is better terminology than a ‘Consumer Complaints’….but as false complaints could be a problem…so too could false praise. No discussion board needed......

I would think a few conditions could make it useful, such as….. only registered members can use it, a password needs to be entered, only apply to new watches bought from A.D.’s, and only by the original purchasers, and must have a serial number.

The only information that needs to be submitted is the Make Model and Serial No. and this would allow any makers to add comment.

There are also benefits to makers through this, because when the rotor stuck on one of my watches, I posted a request for simular problems to be aired….and not one Post came back, so I don’t see that fault as a problem with that watch model….but an isolated event.

If 50 Posts came back saying they had the same problem then I would be worried….and I should be….. and so should the makers.

But, I don’t agree with comments which liken the solution to something like a ‘Winging Corner’, and ‘let the individual sought out his or her own problems’.

I, like many on this forum have gained a lot of knowledge and pleasure reading here about different pieces, and also enjoyed and purchased fine pieces.

But, I am one of the lucky ones, in that, if I have a watch with a problem then I can pick another from my collection and not feel the pain too much.

Yet some budding enthusiasts may not have that luxury, and their ‘big’ move into a fine watch is quiet crushing if they are getting a deal that they feel is unreasonable.

Also some of our learned colleagues can also post an explanation as to why an action may be happening, or explain what is fair and reasonable and what is not.

I do not know everything…there may be a reason why it takes 6 months to fix a problem…..but I have not seen any of the experts telling me why.

Who knows ...may be the Ad's dont send a watch away when they get it ..but wait until they get a batch , maybe a month just to save on freight....Who knows?.. but without discussion we will never know.

I know if someone bought a new car and had to wait 6 months to get a problem fixed under warranty......the whole world would know about.

kindest regards to all,
Jack

It sounds like a good idea but is subjected to the forum's policy and motto.

At first glance, it may strike a balance between "the act of complimenting and/or promoting the brands" and "the act of criticising contructively about the brands".  However, it would be disastrous if this has actually opened a flood gate for abuse.  No elaboration is required.

And, the next question is: Who wants to be the moderator? 

I believe most of the complaints can be dealt with by the authorised dealer or the distributor of the brand.  If they are recalcitrance, then, the posting in the forum here will alert the brand itself.  No prudent brands will allow or tolerate negative public exposure which will neutralise their millions dollar worth of fancy advertisement expenditure.

So, this "Consumer Complaints" window may not be required.

Regards

Ling

I always seek out comments about watch brands that I work for or that friends work for, good or bad. I try not to let the comments get under my skin (even when they're dishonest or completely off-base) and just think of it as free market research. Getting to listen in on real customers talking about your brand is a wonderful thing if you're interesting in doing the best work possible.

For the site however, and as a community member, I generally find the complaint posts tedious and sometimes a little sad, especially when they seem to spiral into a pitch-fork wielding mob mentality. They can be quite embarrassing in fact. I can tolerate them every once in awhile and I think the moderators here are pretty good at deciding how much is justified ire and when it turns into a crusade.

Don't go changing.

_john

No message body

I also know enough to "read between the lines". I find objective comments based on actual experience extremely helpful. I think most of us would recognize an off-base remark.

If you create an atmosphere of intelligent discourse, the idiots are usually shamed enough to stay away (yours truly, not included, of course )