Horological Meandering

Forgive some ramblings on a Sat morning but am very curious to hear what Purist members think of the current trends / state of the Swiss watch industry. I have been enjoying some dialogue on this subject among a number of individuals who work in the industry and/or own major Swiss watch brands and I wonder if my view is true for other collectors or if I am in the minority.

I have been involved in this hobby(?) for a number of years now and perhaps I have leaned a bit too much about the industry and it has made me a bit jaded? We seem to be getting more and more new companies who bring little to the table other than a new design idea. Combine this with fact that many traditional Swiss supply companies (dials, hands, etc) have gone out of business due to the absolutely rampant outsourcing of parts to Asia and I begin to question the authenticity of many brands. The lack of transparency about such things only adds to the problem, as I see it, because when the consumer learns of these practices - it may make one wonder what they are really getting with a high-end purchase. The issue, as I see it, is that the savoir-faire and mentality of the Swiss brands may be lost if the industry is not true to itself. In other words, as a passionate watch person - I buy high end watches because of the work that goes into them and the idea that they are being manufactured by a Swiss company to exacting standards. It is the reputation of the Swiss watch industry for exclusivity and quality that motivates, I think, people to buy objects that are not really necessary but represent an "art."

While globalization is inevitable, if Swiss watch companies continue to outsource a majority of parts, cases, etc and this understanding continues to build in the end consumer - will the very essence of what attracts people to a high-end brand be lost? People pay for authenticity, plain and simple. Or, at least what they see as authenticity. To me, this is the "gold" that the Swiss industry has and exactly what they will lose if they are not true to the art by allowing parts companies and other related manufactures in Switzerland to go out of business because it is cheaper to have dials and hands (or whatever) in China.

Personally, I will target my purchases towards companies that engage in the least amount of outsourcing and are, as I see it, really trying to produce an authentic product. The market is becoming over-saturated with new brands and there is simply too great a choice to now select from. After all, no industry can rest on its laurels forever. We have seen this lesson time and time again.

Just my personal opinions from being a long-time passionate collector. If the quality of outsourced work in Asia is so good - how long do will it be before very high quality Asian companies start putting all of this together and once again change the face of the business? If all the parts are coming from Asia anyway - why should I not give them all of my business? What is the Swiss maker providing? Just a design idea?

Would love to hear what others think. Am I too pessimistic? Jaded? Ignorance is bliss, as they say

I don't think you can draw any real conclusions as to the quality of a product if every piece was not build in-house or in-country.

Case in point - The Beloved Ipod

You would be wrong to think that you have in your hand a great "Made in USA" product because you would be absolutely wrong. 

For example - Parts

The 1.8 inch hard drive was provided by Toshiba.

The stereo digital-to-analog converter was supplied by Wolfson Microelectronics Ltd.

The flash memory chip was provided by Sharp Electronics Corp

Then the assembly is done in China by a company like Inventec and Foxconn.

However,  The concept and design is "Made in USA".

Does this make the product any less of a quality product.  The name Apple stamped on it is what we are buying and we assume that Apple is going to make sure that the quality is there and is affordable.

I realize that High-Horology and electronic devices are by no means in the same category or price point for that matter but the underlying principle is the same.  If a Ferrari or an Aston uses parts from Bosche or ZF (both German companies) is that a minus.  On the contrary it's a plus because those brands themselves stand for quality.

 The brand is what we come to trust and we assume that they will be the guardian of their quality.  If their products start to fail that is when we will abandon them.

Champagne that is not produced in Champagne is not Champagne.  Why because it has been established and recognized as such.  But you can make a product that taste and is produced in the same way but you can't call it champagne because it was not produced in the region.   This is a provenance issue.  But for all we know the bottles, the corks and the packaging may all have been outsourced.  Maybe even out of country.

So I guess what I am saying is there has to be an acceptable amount of outsourcing for quality and price consideration that does not diminish the value of the product.  That is the fine line that brands need to walk all why maintaining the highest standard of both assembly and manufacturing.  I guess the Geneva seal comes into play at some point but that would be another discussion.


I think I am rambling now so I will stop here.  No real conclusion.

Bill

While I like the analogy - does anyone buy an Apple product because of where it was made or even think it is made in the USA? I think the draw is just the appearance and technology. My Ipod is marked with the fact that it was made in China. Swiss watches, however, beg one to assume that they are primarily Swiss products when, in some cases, they are not. Further, you would have no way of knowing this as brands conceal it.

In terms of the car analogy - I agree. It only makes sense to use outsourced parts when they are of better quality than what you could make on your own. However, the sense I get from the outsourcing that is going on here is that it is purely for the cost savings. In other words, we buy dials and hands or have cases made in Asian factories for Swiss watches because the quality is about as good(?) but they can produce them much cheaper than a comparable Swiss parts manufacturer (who are rapidly going out of business as a result). So.... I wonder if this will eventually dilute the cache and sense of exclusivity / quality we look for that, at least in our minds, justifies the price. Would we still love the Ferrari if the body was made in China?

. . . tongue firmly in cheek, Art

The Geneva seal. 

The Geneva seal in horology (watches), is a certification reserved for wrist watch movements made in the City or Canton of Geneva. Although it is concerned mainly with the finishing and decoration of the watch movement, it is considered a high accolade in the industry. Precision testing, though not mandatory, is an option in the inspection process.

Therein lies the rub.  How much of a product can be outsources while still being qualified to be "Swiss".  Stamping out cases at a factory offshore and then later refinished in "Geneva".  Again that very fine line.

I guess that the point you want to raise is how much is outsourced if any and what should be disclosed.  Again there are Swiss made watches that only cost $50 and carry the made is "Switzerland".  Once again is the brand producing the highest quality product in line with their reputation.  The Swiss made watch at $50 you could say is in line but at 1000, 5000 or $50,000 what say you then. 

Again this thread is not one of in-house vs not in-house but how much outsourcing is acceptable.  I guess that is left up to the individual to draw that distinction as to what is acceptable if any.  Then vote with your dollars buy or don't buy.  Other than that there is no bright line.

The worry I guess could be if when outsourcing becomes common place will competition for the production be come the issue.  I draw this analogy from the wine industry when $5.00 bottles of wine are competing with fine wine 10 and 20 times their price for corks.  The cheaper wines what real corks to make their wine look expensive when less quality plastic or other corks would do fine.  In the mean time fine wine makers are struggle to find a good supply which is getting more scarce.

Bill

... to discuss your views of the merits of 'Stelvin' (screw-cap) closures for fine wine. A lot of top-end New World wine (if that isn't an oxymoron) is finding its way into Stelvin and, frankly, after one overcomes the emotional bind to cork, that's a relief. Without wishing to hijack the thread (maybe we should move to Time Out?) what are your views, as one who is known to favour the occasional aged drop of fermented grape juice?

 

Cheers,

pplater.

Am I here banned yet? (I'm a big oenophile) This message has been edited by mrsnak on 2010-03-13 18:20:19

You are correct in so far as the technical merits of the screw top which is well documented in your neck of the woods.  But it that draw to the emotional aspect of the organic living and breathing cork sort of like digital and analog.  But the point you make is valid to the authenticity thread.

As things evolve we start to accept new technologies but hand crafted still is a big draw.  Only time will tell.

See you over on TO so we can have some group therapy on corks and wine. 

Bill

the comparison do not stand for even just one second.

Lets analize this:we are a community(watch lovers,collectors,not only PPro members) of people with full control over our actions.We all know that our passsion is a little bit exagerated and every time we save money (a lot of it) to acquire a new piece we ask ourselves why ,but nevertheless we carry on and get it.

Let's face it,watches are the most expensive thing out there;no comparison with cars ,clothes or anything else.I always remind myself that with a decent minute repeater I could get not 1 but 2!!!!!Bentleys or Aston Martins(and believe me even though the Westminter chime is a dream,driving a car like that is not bad either!!!!).

We are all experts and very knowledgeable,and I suppose not fools,so we are perfectly aware how much our little wrist companions could be wayyyyyyy over priced!!(my list of example could go forever,from marketig gimmicks to the price difference between gold and platinum cases which can be absurd!).Are we all stupid?

No I don t think so,an Ipod can have all the foreign components in the world but it is what it is who cares!!!!Its value is proportionate to its use,whatever.A car can have outsource component,well fine as long as it perform well and the overall experience is good.But with watches?No well no,we know it is the ultimate luxury to buy an obsolete piece of whatever metal for tens or hundreds Ks,but...but...we are buying a dream,we sweat and save to buy a beautiful dream,the quintessential experience,the ultimate experience a piece of paradise ,an artwork.....So if you don t mind,I DO care if the hands are in-house or not,I DO CARE if it is all manufactured by an old artisan in a little chalet in the snowy Alps,I DO CARE if it takes months and months to assemble it.THAT IS WHAT I PAY FOR!

I know it is not always like that:I met a big rep for a very well known brand,and just a little chat with him made me very sad and disillusioned.He said it is all smokey mirrors,all the industry is......I walked out thinking I can t be that fool,,,but I walked back home and had a look at my collection,and...and it was giving me the same emotions....so.....well F$&K IT!I love it ,I want to carry on collecting and gathering information about this passion of mine,but please...please you need to sell me QUALITY and EXCLUSIVITY,you need to take that dream ,package it ,wrap it and sell it to me as a dream,nothing less!

I am aware that that little watcmaker with a white beard ,polishing my caliber doesn t always exist,but I require a minimum of effort.I want to know that the next watch is the best buy of my life in terms of care and attention.

Let me believe it,it takes a lot to save for it.

I hope I didn t rant too much,Yours,Mo

 

 

This message has been edited by moc on 2010-03-13 17:41:43

But we are driven fisrt by our emotional ties to the brand the quality/qualities they stand for.  As advertised.  We have to at some level trust the brands that we buy.  If we are simply looking to learn what time it is with the 20 dollar timex, but again that is not the question.  You know how may threads have stated around If you pay 10k how much quality should you get vs 50K and why is my 50K watch running a few seconds slow, didn't I pay 50K for perfection.  Well we know the answer to that.

The bottom line, at least for me, is the quality of the brands products in line with my expectations for that brand.  If they are not I won't buy from that brand.  


Bill

Mo the white bearded guy is actually polishing my watch right now so yours will have to wait.  LOL

pics of who is likely to be the most suitable person to embody the wachmaker of your dreams!! Here is mine . Mo

and he works for MB&Friends (MB stands for More Beers....)!!!!

his avatar up soon....Ha ha !!

Mo - I think you summed up my feelings to a tee. I personally think this practice and these trends, if they continue as they are currently, will significantly dilute the prestige (and hence the main selling draw) for Swiss makers. While it may sound melodramatic, I think the industry is, for the sake of profits, slowly sealing its own fate. I hope I am wrong.

. . . had to be made locally for reasons of national security, but those standards have been loosened in recent years because it's no longer feasible to manufacture everything here anymore.

The issue of sourcing is an anachronism . . . if a Chinese, Peruvian, or Ugandan firm can produce dials to the required standard, why wouldn't a Swiss manufacturer employ them?

To paraphrase an old joke, why should we be more Swiss than the Swiss?

Reflectively, Art

Go figure.

. . . the reason they earned military contracts . . . cordially, Art

Hamilton (an all-American company) got a good amount the contracts, but Benrus, I think got more.
Benrus over Hamilton?

. . . while Hamilton was in Pennsylvania. It could just be a matter of which state had the more influential Congressional delegation ;-) . . . cordially, Art

Some things never change. LOL

In my view, the question is not really whether a part was outsourced or not - but does it purport to be "Swiss Made" and not really be all "Swiss Made". In the case of iPod, Apple is quite happy to tell you that it was made in China but designed in the US. Now if they tried to tell you that it was made in the good ole USofA but got it made in China, we would have some problems with it. So I agree with you on the issue of transparency.

The second issue in my mind is whether the watch that you buy really has good quality (in whatever way the buyer decides to evaluate it). We expect the Swiss made brand to mean a certain level of quality. If that same quality was maintained but the product was built in Japan, would we still have the respect? True watch lovers give a Grand Seiko or a Credor do respect Seiko (albeit grudgingly at times). The manufacturing technologies in China and India have been improving and will continue to do so. So I am sure a day is going arrive when the quality is matched. What happens then.

The last issue I would like to address is not developing anything in-house. So the movement is sourced through a 3rd party, the case is made by somebody else, but it is all "integrated" at the watch company. Is this any better or worse than a manufacture company? If you look back a few decades, only a few companies very true manufactures. JLC supplied movements to a whole bunch of big and important brand names. Did we love those brands any less? For the moment, it seems that we being a manufacture is very important.

As a conclusion, personally for me a watch company has to meet the following minimums:
* I like a company that has sufficient capability to develop movements, but dont necessarily worry if they make every movement in house (eg., UN, IWC)
* I need for the company to produce good quality watch, but I dont necessarily care if it was made in-house or outsourced (there are a number of independent watch makers that I respect that follow this model)
* I like a company that is honest with me about what they are doing.

The big problem for me is that I cant always afford the watches made by a company that meets these standard and end up compromising So much for rules...........

J.

Well said, J. I like your three points.

Particularly in regards to transparency. I doubt we'll ever know exactly how vertically integrated particular watch brands are unless they reveal it to us...which I doubt. (Seiko and Rolex would appear to be the most vertically integrated...).

But regardless of the degree, as long as the company is up-front, I don't really have a problem with it. That goes for its marketing and production.

 

As an aside, and not directed at you, the automotive analogy isn't particularly appropriate. The amount of outsourcing in the car industry is immense, it has always been thus. Even, or particularly, in the niche brands such as Ferrari. The idea of a vertically integrated car maker is probably now economically impossible. Ford Rouge plant, anyone?

We are willing to drive cars and fly planes with "outsourced" parts - some of which require greater precision than watch components.  But we (and I) find it hard to accept outsourced parts in a watch. The feeble human psyche....
J.