Horological Meandering

Hi All,

I thought I would follow on from jschen888's technical question about sub-seconds with a thread on the aesthetics of sub-seconds displays. What are your favourites? What works and what doesn't? How do you feel about round sub-seconds in square or rectangular watches?

And we could extend our discussion into other sub-dials. One of my dislikes in watch design are subdials that 'eat' into other numbers. Some are more distracting than others, but I would be interested in your feelings on this. I particularly like my wife's JLC Reverso Memory that I posted on this weeks WristScan thread because it does not obscure any of the other aspects of the dial. Here is another picture.

Regards

Andrew
There's no place like HoMe!

Here's a few which appeal because they take the standard sub-seconds that extra step -

First, the Benzinger, which elevates the second hand to equal status with the hour and minute: 

 

Second (geddit???), the J*D Grande Seconde -

 

And if you have a problem with sub-seconds ''eating''  the numerals, then look no further than the Journe solution: shrink your numerals -

 

Cheers,

pplater.

The Grande Seconds of the first two examples struck me as the polar opposites of the PSM Shimoda in their presentation of time. Do you find that time passes any differently when wearing these watches?

All nice example, and trust Journe to understand my difficulty with eaten numerals. I already feel like he is one of the few that 'gets' my difficulty with RdM's on automatic watches, and now this! Some Journe photos this weekend for a new thread next week. Are you in?

Andrew

Standing by for Journe instructions.

Otherwise, your question is a good one. As you know, the single hand of the Shimoda slowly and imperceptibly sweeping past the small five-minute markers on the dial rail all but 'freezes' time, and it is a fantastic watch to wear when the speed at which time passes should be a matter of no consequence - on holiday, on weekends, at leisurely dinners, at the theatre; you know the kind of thing. It's "Speake-Marin soup for the soul" to have such cavalier disregard for precise time whilst knowing the time sufficiently to meet the not-so-great-need.

You seem to be proposing that the opposite would be true with the J*D 'Grande Seconde', and it is understandable why you would think that. Well, while you are watching the second hand the pace of the passage of time is apparent: still, your attention is drawn almost entirely to that hand, and you tend not to focus so much on the precise position of the (rather small) minute hand on the (rather small) upper dial. When you are not looking at it, the GS is much the same as any other watch in that respect.

Where it might be the case, though, that one is more continually conscious of the precise passage of time, is with watches that have a loud and audible 'tick'; watches that chime on the quarter; watches with large digital (or digital style) displays where the passage of seconds and minutes is loud and proud (think MCT, Devon Tread); perhaps even watches with deadbeat seconds the action of which is coarse enough to be 'felt'.

Here's a gratuitous shot of the PSM for good measure:

 

Cheers,

pplater.

I don't have much to compare against, being new to fine watches, but I really like the look of the sub second dial on my watch (VC Patrimony Traditionnelle date self-winding). Here is a close-up of a picture that I previously used to highlight my newfound obsession with getting the second hand and minute hand to reach the minute mark at the same time. I like that the sub second dial (placed opposite the date aperture at 3 o'clock) takes design elements from the main dial, but adds a twist. The gray track (with 5 second ticks) clearly draws inspiration from the minute track. The polished inner track (with 15 second ticks) has no counterpart on the main dial, but ties the sub second dial to the case and the applied hour markers. And the rest of the sub second dial is textured with fine concentric circles (barely noticeable to the naked eye), making it just a bit different from the main dial. How noticeably so depends on the lighting. Finally, taking a design cue from the date aperture, the whole sub second dial is slightly recessed into the main dial. The differently textured sub dial and the recessed location are subtle enough to allow the watch to stay simple at first glance, yet they give the watch dial a rich depth and texture. To me, these two design features really make the dial come alive.

Thanks Jason, a lovely example. Great use of colors as well. It's nice how a relatively simple dial can be elevated with some deftly used design features such as guilloche depth and colour.

And the Glashutte Original Senator Chronometer sounds like it was made for your fetish of matching second and minute hands. Hacking seconds comes a distant poor 'second' after that watch.

Andrew

Interesting about the mechanism to ensure perfect second hand and minute hand placement. I'll have to look into that sometime for a future acquisition.

But one of my favourite sub second dials is this one with all its beautiful details;

 

 

 

Or this one where the sub second harmonize with the power reserve;

 

 

Best

 

Blomman

My Avatar says hello. Mine is from the Grand Date, but yours has no extraneous writing to get in the way. A nice example and exactly what I was thinking of when I asked about round sub-seconds in rectangular watches. It shouldn't necessarily work, but it adds some tension to the dial and harmonizes with the day/night indicator.

Thanks for sharing it here.

Andrew

The Reverso is really something special!

 

 

Your avatar is great – with the “smiling” hands!

 

The Reverso with all the small and delicate details needs time to appreciate.

 

Here are an example of the day & night indicator.

 

 

 

Best

 

Blomman

Thanks Blomman,

Yes it is the smiling hands, but the hour hand reaching down to the seconds hand also makes me think of Michelangelo's Finger of God image.

A

I like a good subdial and I own several of them. I used to own more, but I had to give up several on grounds of illegibility to aging eyes. I also have a strong objection to the "small movement in large watch" trend that results in subdials' crowding the center of the watch instead of being placed in proper proportion. I therefore suggest to all watch companies that they use movements that allow them to place subdials at a reasonable distance from the center of the watch so that they can (a) look better and (b) be made large enough to be legible even to the presbyopically challenged.

Good question Andrew.  I think subdial placement is one of the more subtle, yet important, design problems to solve.  Agree with the the note above that unless the movement and the case are matched (and who does this better than Lange?) you end up with dials too close to the center (small movement), or too close to the outer edge (typical problem with Unitas).

I like Nomos' movements and execution quite a bit, but I'm concerned that they hitched their future to the wrong star in choosing the Peseux 7001 as the layout for their movements.  At 10.5 ligne, this is simply too small to locate the seconds dial properly in the watch sizes desirable today (>36 mm).  Looking at their models, you can see they are trying to design their way around this, with dates below the seconds dial, and subdials butted up against the central hands to make the subdial look larger, but ultimately I think the ebauche is not ideal.

Why I love my Dornbluth:

Perfect seconds dial placement.  Evenly balanced between both the bottom edge of the hour hand boss and the railroad track, and also the center of the hands and the edge of the visible dial.  Slightly oversized, but a fitting nod to the oversized seconds of the marine chronometers.  Acknowedged that the 7 and the 5 are "nibbled", but frankly, eaten numbers never bothered me aesthetically.

Tom

... as much as I want to love the PP 5070, I can't because of what it does to the 2, 4, 8 and 10.

I know there are many Purists including Quan, Nico, Provents and others that own this watch, but I do not love this design. Still, I am working on it, because my experience tells me that the designs I don't warm to immediately are sometimes the ones that give the longest pleasure.

Image: Baron. Thanks!

I think that it is hard to beat Nomos for subdial placement. Note that on the date complication models, the subdial is perfectly centered between the center pinion and the date window. No eaten indices either (although I actually like when numerals are eaten or distorted). In terms of legibility, out of all my watches, this one is the easiest overall to read for my older and failing eyes. The Nomos Zurich series is a touch under a 40mm case size and still accomplishes this balance, although a smaller Zeta caliber is used (13 3/4 lignes) versus 14 1/2 lignes for the Beta movement in the Tangente. The result is what you described as your fear in the use of a small caliber, the date window is pushed right up against the subdial which produces a moment of awkwardness in an otherwise well balanced face.

This Blancpain is right at 36mm, they seem to have a similar thought by placing the "chronometer" legend at 6 o'clock:

It seems like this theme was in my mind in my early collecting carreer.....look at this ...no eating no adapting ,just clever design that gives the dials a playful, interesting approach.

Two of my beloved,with a special note to the JD that I considered letting go recently ,but instead it grew on me again as one of the coolest watch I ve ever seen.

Yours Mo.

even go for the Lange if I didn't think they had got it right the first time:

The dial is absolutely stunning!

 

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Best

 

Blomman

i usually hate off Centered Sub Second Dials , but there's an exception !!!

A.Lange is allowed.to do that cause it looks SO GOOD  :0)))))

 Cheers

 Tony

Hi

Seem to be extoling the virtues of Oris Big Crowns of late - here for the subdial. Placed at 9 O'clock all very legible - works well with the pointer date.

Cheers

JML