Horological Meandering

Greetings to all!  Thanks to everyone for the many inputs to my recent thread on paring, then expanding, my collection.  The thing that perhaps surprised me the most was that several folks commented on the level of introspective musing in my post -- when in my view, it was really intended to a fairly dispassionate accounting of comings and goings.

This, of course, got me thinking!  Was there really a lot of overt pondering and emotional content in that post, or was I unintentionally tapping into others' internal dialogues?  And, what's really behind my collecting and the choices that I make?

Larry Seiden posted a great remark that focused on the idea of variety.  At the end of the day, for collectors, is it really about (serial or concurrent) variety in our holdings, with all that is left trying to figure out how many and how frequently is enough?  Could be...

That said, for me I think there is something else going on here -- a search for coherence and authenticity.  A good friend of mine recently showed me a segmentation of luxury goods buyers.  To state the obvious, people who buy expensive things do so for a variety of reasons -- from wanting to fit in to wanting to show off, but varying along other axes as well.  At one end of this particular segmentation scheme are the avant-garde folks who see themselves as being on the bleeding edge, pushing the envelope, changing the nature of the category (OK, visualize a forum member or members here...).  Just inside of that group is a segment of Authenticity Seekers, who may buy from major brands or independents, and can serve as the patrons of new crafts, but who are motivated by a search for internal consistency rather than a lust for the new. 

In the dictionary, you can just put my photo next to that one -- I am apparently a big-time Authenticity Seeker.  PPlater was kind enough to characterize me recently as an "alpha collector" (I'm still blushing about that one -- I'm still a rookie relative to very many here), but my reading of that is that he and I both have the Authenticity gene and he sees some of his internal mental models reflected in my choices.  I found out this past week that he and I both wear the same brand of eyeglasses, for Pete's sake (IC Berlin, if you're interested -- perhaps slightly on the avant-garde end of things, but cool in the sense that they figured out how to make a folding eyeglass frame without hinges).  When I first posted my "Big 6" watches earlier this year, DTL responded that he had owned four of the same six watches!  That's pretty wild, given that one of the six is a unique piece.  Coincidence?  I think not..

I had the privilege of attending a VC dinner hosted by Alex recently, and during the pre-dinner discussion I kept coming back to the concepts of integrity and coherence.  Is the Tour de L'ile a great watch?  Well, it is certainly a complicated watch (to put it mildly) but does it have an inherent theme, or is it just showing off?  I recall an interview with Vianney in which he said that he could have put a tourbillon in the Antiqua, but what would be the point?  His 19th Century time traveler didn't have a need for a tourbillon, but certainly would need a perpetual calendar!  I brought up the example of the AP Equation of Time (one of my Big 6) as a complicated watch that has a coherent logic -- it is about the movement of the Earth around the Sun, and reminds us of our place in the universe.  They could have put a repeater in there, but why? 

I frequently return to this idea of internal integrity.  A perhaps related concept is that I admire things that reflect the essence of their makers -- perhaps it is related to my career as a business strategist, but I admire things that draw on elements of core identity.  In business, we use the much-abused term Core Competence (invented by my friend and colleague Gary Hamel) to characterize this idea.  I like to think that my Big 6 (Plus, at this point) reflect the concepts of integrity and core essence:

1.  The AP EOT -- see above.  Also there's the use of the AP 2210 base movement, which stands pretty high on the list of most purely conceived automatic movements, in the view of folks who would know

2. The VC Malte Squelette -- to me VC means openworking, making this one a natural.  Also, it is based on the VC 1120 automatic movement (see AP 2120, above -- it's from the same original JLC development)

3.  Lange Datograph -- from the busy dial to the stacked movement to the instantaneous minute change, the epitome of Saxon watchmaking

4. Voutilainen Observatoire -- the watch that made Kari famous (yes, I know all about the decimal repeaters and would kill to own one).  The idea of basing a "wearing" watch on an observatory movement was brilliant, and this watch represents (not just to me) what Kari is all about

5. JLC Reverso Repetition Minutes -- It's a Reverso, it has an innovative Eric Coudray movement (take a look at the shape of those gongs, retained in JLC repeaters to this day), and my guess (although I could be wrong) is that Janek did the cosmetics.  If those things don't say JLC, what does?

6. Speake-Marin Fighting Time -- The very first "art" watch that Peter ever did.  Absolutely reflects his core concept of robust construction, has a dial done by the best of the best, Kees Engelbarts (who also engraved the case), and the materials (Platinum and diamonds) are consistent with the story of the watch -- the attempt of the mighty and eternal dragons to turn back the passage of time, only to fail.  A meaningful watch for my stage of life (as with the EOT, there is a big element of emotional content here as well as that authenticity thing, pondering where and how, if at all, I fit into the endless sweep of space and time -- geez, that sounds pretentious but is nonetheless what these pieces put me in mind of)

7.  Lange Double Split -- see Datograph, above.  Not seen as "iconic" by some (absence of date, size, what?), but it fits my wrist and I don't think anyone other than Lange could do this watch.  "State of the Art Tradition" is the motto -- hard to argue that on this one, Lange hit the mark -- maybe even more than with the Dato (heresy, I know)

8.  Vianney Halter Antiqua -- As Max Busser said, the "missing link between traditional and contemporary horology."  This is the VH watch that will be famous 50 years from now.  To meet Vianney is to know that the Antiqua is what he is all about

9.  Vyscocil VA -- If you don't think this one is going to reflect the essence of its maker, you haven't been following it.  Even if it is never made (perish the thought!) the single-minded (obsessive?) quest that it represents is authentic in its own right.  And, overlooked in the stories about the lengthy wait for delivery are the truly clever small complications (separate hour/minute/seconds setting, fixed duration power reserve, hard linkage of seconds and minutes hands etc.) that make this piece inventive

Do all pieces that I own need to reflect this mental model?  Well, that might get a little boring, to be honest.  So, I suspect that there will always be other pieces that migrate into, and over time out of, my collection.

I know that I've been going on a while about all of this (probably meaningless) stuff, but as a capper, if you look at some of the other stuff that I buy or own, I think that the theme plays out:

Car: Ferrari 12-cylinder (not 8-cylinder -- Enzo famously said "A Ferrari is a car with a 12-cylinder engine")

Wine: Among others, Sean Thackrey -- a guy who lives in the Marin woods and uses techniques out of ancient texts (including open vats under the trees) to make mind-blowing products

Shirts: Charvet -- the ones where you go into the store on the Place Vendome and take the little elevator upstairs to where the nice lady who pretends to speak only French measures you up and you sort through the big stacks of bolts of cloth that will eventualy become your shirts

Sweaters: Loro Piana.  If the Almighty wears a sweater, I'm convinced that it is a Loro Piana Vicuna -- it's like spun gold

All right -- basta!  I would love to provoke a discussion here about the internal mental and emotional models that you see in your own collecting behavior, as I am sure that it would teach me a lot!  And if at the end of the day all of this is, as Larry suggested, just a way to rationalize the need for variety, I'm OK with that too

All the best,

Gary G

Hi there Gary,

I had my fun with Sean's wines when i was in Tokyo, then when i left that place i almost cannot find it anymore, so miss my days drinking " heaven liquified".

Great taste all up there!

Thanks for sharing an insight!

Stephen

We had the good fortune to be directed to one of his wines at a restaurant, and following an exchange of emails I now have the chance to buy a few bottles each year.  His emails to the "list members" are even more rambling than mine, but substantially more entertaining!

Best,

Gary

The Core Competence of the Corporation AND Strategy as Revolution....I still have them in the store room, boxed up, and memories of my time in UK. He was visiting professor at LBS. Dude, you got to get me his autograph for my books!!!

I will Ttempt to contribute to your chain of thought shortly....me still out galavanting.

Best,

Horo

...do the autograph thing.  GH and I are working together with our Korean client, and I just spent a couple of hours on the phone with him the other day working through some client materials.  He's a bit of a watch guy himself, but lower key than fanatics like ourselves, for sure (which likely suggests he's a bit saner).  He and I are neigbors (well, a few miles apart) in California, so I see him quite a bit when I'm at home.

I have also been working a bit of late with Julian Birkinshaw on development of a case study on our client here, so my LBS ties are stronger than before.

Will look forward to any comments you choose to make on my musings...

Best,

Gary

To be frank, my business school, if any, leanings stopped in late 90s, so I am short on the latest management thinking and philosophy. I have been thinking of going back to business school, even have some research for thesis thought out, but work and family, and the usual excuses one conjure up, including time spent on Purists, means I can't focus and concentrate on completing a course.

I didn't know you have academic/management teaching leanings!

Best,

Horo

...has been spent working with a who's who of business faculty -- from marketing gurus like Phil Kotter, Lou Stern, Eric von Hippel, and Bob Blattberg, to Hamel, to Clay Christensen, and so on.  It has been a marvelous learning journey for me, to be sure!

Also in the Small World department, a friend and classmate of mine, Mark Fuller, founded Monitor Group with MIchael Porter...

Best,

Gary

I've enjoyed your introspective posts (and beautiful pictures), but let me ask a further question:  would you still be "seeking authenticity" if you had 1/10 the resources to devote to your watches, your car, your shirts, etc?  And if so, what would your choices be in those categories?  That is, can one only be "seeking authenticity" if one has the resources to pursue the high end of the arena?  My feeling is that there isn't a single overarching motivator, and that we tend to self identify with those traits that we would find most admirable. 

I've tried to word this thoughtfully, this is not a criticism of either your posts or your wonderful watch collection.  You asked for feedback and thoughts, thus my post.  No doubt this would be a very interesting in person discussion, particularly if it involved excellent wine!

...and I appreciate the considerate way in which you raise them! 

I do believe strongly that "authenticity" exists at all levels of pursuit, as long as the creator is true to him- or herself.  I have had the really great fortune to do well enough in my work that I can afford what I consider to be the "best" things in several arenas, but at one-tenth the price I still think that there are genuine and authentic choices to be had.  I didn't put these watches in this thread, but for instance I own a 1960's vintage Omega Ploprof, which I see as an object of almost other-worldly purity (why would you invent such a thing if not in service of its functionality?), and one of my very favorite pieces (and a long-term keeper) is my JLC Master Ultra Thin, which is so focused on its intent and so beautifully made (my understanding is that the movement is done in JLC's high complications department, and to see it through a loupe is to believe it).  Each of these watches cost me less than $4000, and I plan to keep both of them for a long time.  I also own two of Richard and Maria Christina Habring's watches -- by no means are they gorgeously finished, but they reflect a very clear philosophy that the Habrings have kept true to over time.  Same price points as the two watches mentioned previously.  I have bought two Silberstein watches for my wife, because they truly reflect Mr. S' philosophy that it true joy is to have your passion as your profession, and because they are instantly recognizable and indicative of a specific design philosophy.  Neither was wildly expensive.

Some of the watches that I sold had this same sort of "DNA" (a term I don't like, but I'm running out of terms for authenticity/integrity), but I don't have anything like infinite resources and I needed to sell some to afford others.  Some of that was not part of some quest for the authentic, but simple trading up.

In other realms,  I guess I also have an example or two.  I own several pairs of Tom's shoes, because I really like what they stand for (every time I buy a pair, they give a pair away to the less fortunate) and I like the way that the shoes look and fit -- they are quite distinctive.  That's not so easy to do at $50 the pair!  Sean Thackrey's wines aren't the most expensive, but I love his philosophical approach -- and they taste good! 

But at the same time, at whatever my total budget might be, my bias seems to be to get one really special thing (a Tammy Garcia clay vessel, for instance) rather than 10 lesser items.  That was somewhat true in my youth, and seems increasingly so today.

For better or worse, while in some realms I guess I am looking for the "best" and am fortunate enough to be able to indulge my tastes, in general I think that I am also looking for the "truest."  I understand that this is a loaded term, and that I have no monopoly (and perhaps no insight at all) on what constitutes "truth."  Many people think that Patek is "best," but I've sold the ones I once owned -- to me it's unclear what they stand for, other than being an ultimate luxury brand.  I've never owned a Rolex, but I certainly would -- to me they actually stand for some things -- robust construction, quality materials, and excellent time keeping.  All of this, is of course, terribly subjective.

My ambition in life is to display a certain level of integrity in my dealings with others, and I suppose that this desired (perhaps idealized) self-concept transfers over into the items that I enjoy buying and owning. 

I also agree that my pursuit of "authenticity" is absolutely based in those traits that I find admirable, and that many others have completely different views of what is most admirable (for instance, breaking new ground and challenging convention, or sustaining a tradition as embodied in a specific form of craftmanship) and that their collections will, and should, reflect these different values.  By no means am I trying to promote my values or preferences as universally desirable -- apologies if my writing implies this, because my intent is to share my thinking, not to prescribe how others should think.

I also fully admit that there is a fair chance that all of my high-sounding prose is simply the rationalization of a complete blow-hard trying to justify his purchases to himself, sound erudite to others, or trumpet his self-perceived good taste!  My request for feedback was sincere, and I appreciate that you have taken me up on it.

All the best,

Gary G

Its always a pleasure to read your posts, I think you've topped my list of favourite posters with thus one. I strongly agree with your idea of "trueness" and authenticity. I hope that one day I can acquire just one of your amazing pieces.

I have to confess that I feel a bit ill at ease with starting a thread like this one: am I doing any benefit by discussing my thoughts and feelings, or is it all a bunch of self-indulgent hot air?  I appreciate the positive reinforcement from you!

Best,

Gary

Great topic and presentation. I think there is plenty of authenticity to be found at different price levels, especially if you look at vintage watches.

Your criteria for authenticity actually seem to be a combination of what might be called "sincerity," that is being true to brand identity and functionality, and "innovation."

Now that watches are luxury items, sincerity is in short supply. When they were necessary tools, however, nearly every watch represented a sincere effort to provide the best possible timekeeping and reliability at a given price point. Timex's wish to do so very cheaply without the need for craftsmanship or jewels is as sincere as Patek's wish to do so through the most exacting craftsmanship.

As for innovation, there was a lot of it in the old days. There should be no problem finding watches that solved timekeeping, winding, water resistance or other problems in inventive ways: you can look at anything from Zenith's large-diameter balance wheels to IWC's Pellaton winding system (or, at a lower price level, Eterna's ball bearings), Felsa's Bidynator two-direction winding system, Universal's microrotors, Epsa's supercompressor waterproofing (or Rolex's, or Mido's cork-based seals), to the various approaches to magnetism, date setting and changing, etc. I can't count the number of unusual regulating systems, chronograph mechanisms, crystal attachment systems, etc. that were used in the old days. Each is worthy of respect as a functional innovation, and each is a product of the sincerity described in the preceding paragraph.

We can all learn and have fun with watches at almost any economic level. That being said, regardless of economic level each of us owes it to him- or herself to bring an organized and profound thought process to the task of determining what to own. Your posts reflect that depth, and I think that is a standard to which we all should aspire.

I hadn't thought a lot about vintage pieces, but your raise an excellent point that the vintage world is a wonderful hunting ground for classic pieces that reflect the ethos of their creators.  Just to look at any of the pieces that Tick-talk (Dean) or Dan Shao show here illustrates that there are wonderful, sincere (as you say) pieces that are not stratospheric in their cost.

I also liked your split between "sincerity" and innovation.  I'm not so sure that for me it's about innovation per se, but I do admire solutions that contravene conventional wisdom.  So, Kari's decimal repeaters, Volker's hard-wiring of the minutes hand to the seconds hand, and so on do get my attention, just for the "why didn't someone else think of that?" factor.  I loved your examples of the functional innovations of the past, though -- for  me perhaps it is this idea of "functional" innovation vs. show-offy newness that appeals.  Again, of course, one man's function is another's frill...

Thank you for your very thoughtful input to the thread -- I do appreciate it, and learned from it.

Best,

Gary

 

A very philosophical topic, and I'd trust fellow PuristS to put in our collective thoughtful response!

...and for bringing a formal definition of "authenticity" to bear!  Very instructive.

For me, it is certainly about authenticity in the sense that the maker's values match my preferences to an extent, but even more it is whether the makers themselves are being authentic.  Are they being true to their own character?  Do they, in fact, even have a character, ethos, or core identity against which their offerings can be compared? 

As a result, there are some pieces that I own that are not necessarily "me," but are definitely "so them" with regard to the maker.  So, while I definitely agree with you that I'm selecting pieces that fit my identity, I am mostly trying, I think, to collect objects from makers who themselves are internally consistent and make things that reflect a coherent narrative.  I would never (I think) buy Max Busser's HM4 with the Panda on it, but to hear him tell the story of how the panda flying the spaceship represents the dream of a dying child to be free of his disease fills me with deep emotion.  I don't want the actual object, but I do want the truthfulness of the motivation that it represents.

Again, I feel that I'm getting out on thin ice here with touchy-feely (and potentially self-important) internal dialogue -- but if you can't do that on PuristS, then where?

Best,

Gary

... of authenticity of the watchmaker themselves, rather than, my interpretation of authenticity against the collector's own personality.

And like Andreas said, it is a great place to be, where the authenticity of the watchmaker, matches that of the owner. Perhaps when that happens, it is what we call our "grail watch" (I don't want to open up that Pandora's box on what is a grail watch again). But when a collector finds a watch that character-wise, is consistent with him/herself, his/her own identity and personality, yet at the same time, that watch represents the spirit and philosophy of the watchmaker/manufacture, and carries the genes of it's creator, it would be somewhat a match made in heaven.

Again, thanks for such a thought provoking topic! And I agree of course, where else can it be, apart from PuristSPro, that we can have discussions like this!

On the term 'Grail Watch' I would associate it to a watch that I really love but never ever come own.

Most of time a grail represent a dream of an individual when the dream is realise it losses its status. Everything ends there. I sincerely believe it would be the death of my watch collecting journey if I ever come to own my grail watch.

Where do I in from there? No where unless I pursue another dream set forth another grail. Then it disqualify the grail watch I have now. See what I mean?

What make fantasies great is there non existence. It's the thought of possibilities that bring out the romance.

I can share this personal experience on collecting watch. I know am getting an old watch that can't compete with its modern cousin and to even pay at a higher price? Unbelievable!

What make me do so is the life and the story the watch have live. I can only fantasise. I can't live it that's why the magic works.
It would be the same it I would take a modern watch wear it daily for 15-20 years and pass it off to my son and told him all the past moments I had with this watch. I can guess the value he put on that old watch.

Funny thing thou it might just be a mido/tissort but my son can't replace it with anything else because the watch represent the identity of his father. A situation that can't be change and the fantasies lives on.

Grail watch at most time represent a current love affair that can't be had. Once the affair happen for real it usually takes a transformation to a fling. Then the previous status of the grail watch is just a lie because now I'll be eyeing another love that can't be have. It goes on. Often enough I ask myself does it really end?

Honest answer will be No. Unless I'm willing to spell death to fantasies. When that happen it will be the end of my watch collecting journey. I can only enjoy what I have and stop thinking and looking at others.

Are human really capable of doing that? The sincere answer from me is No.

Thanks for this thought provoking post.

I learned something about myself today.

Best
Tyler

lack authenticity?

My comment about 12-cylinder Ferraris was (primarily) tongue-in-cheek and in reference to today's road cars (after all, the F1 cars are 8-cylinder these days, and Ferrari hasn't had a V-12 F1 car in ages).  It's just a bit of fun to tweak the guys who own the "entry level" cars (joking!).

My knowledge of the vintage cars is not great, but isn't that car a Monza?  I've read that Fangio preferred the 860 Monza as his sportscar racing mount -- that probably suggests that it is somewhat authentic, eh?

When I was following the auction market a bit, it seemed that the 4-cylinder Monzas were trading at a substantial discount (up to 3x to 4x) relative to the comparable 12-cylinder cars.  A review of recent auction results from the August "holy week" this year in Monterey shows the following results:

1. 750 Monza -- $2.5 million (a lot!)

2. 250 SWB -- $5.3 million (a lot more)

3. TR 250 -- $16.4 million (a gigantic amount more)

I am not going to argue that this makes the Monza "less authentic" (surely, an eye of the beholder thing if ever there were one) than the TR, but the market is telling me something about how knowledgeable collectors are viewing 12 cylinder cars vs. comparable 4-cylinder ones.

I don't want to put too much emphasis on auction results -- doing so would tell me that a Patek is "more authentic" than a comparable VC, which is something I don't necessarily believe, for instance -- but the data are interesting...

Thanks for contributing to the thread!

Best,

Gary

It's a Monza.

To my mind, no emphasis AT ALL should be put on auction prices when it comes to authenticity of cars. Price is an extremely poor measure of 'authenticity'.

Example: Hideously over-restored and unoriginal, tarted-up, Ralph Lauren Alfa 8C versus an unrestored, just raced, all-original Alfa GTA with FIM papers dating back to the 60's?

 

 

Believe me, I'd take the Monza in a heartbeat  

And I agree with you point on auction values -- a big part of what I'm trying to say, however poorly, is about discerning the characteristic nature of things, not about whether "other people" like those objects.

Best,

Gary G

I liked the deep thought you put into each decision. Thanks for sharing that man, I know where you are coming from. It makes perfect sence. Also Nice car man! You are one man that does not play!
Best
SamEE

...when being serious is so much fun?

Now if I could only get rid of those Poseur Shields on the fenders...

Best,

Gary G

IMO, I think out of your collection, it matches up best with the DS.... for some reason I can't really put to words... Perhaps the DS has that "presence" and sporty look!

...as the first photo I posted online of the DS was with the steering wheel of that car in the background:

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Certainly in terms of design attributes (including horsepower and torque!) the DS and 599 GTB have much in common...

Best,

Gary

A beautiful post. I think you describe very well what you see as authentic in watches and other things. The other statement I found most interesting was in your reply below: "My ambition in life is to display a certain level of integrity in my dealings with others, and I suppose that this desired (perhaps idealized) self-concept transfers over into the items that I enjoy buying and owning." To my eye this may be what makes you the Alpha collector - there is a self-percieved symmetry here that makes your collection a relatively direct way of self expression. Authenticity of oneself and the object coincide. A happy place to be in at any price point.

For myself, while I quite often (Datograph, Doublesplit, Antiqua, Reverso Minute Repeater) agree with your concept of authenticity in watches (exceptions: VC Squelette), the relationship of my self image with watches is more ambivalent. In fact, in retrospect, I bought my first significant watch a couple years ago as a disguise (although I did not see it so at the time) - I changed jobs into a position for which I was seen as too young and inexperienced, and one of my repsonses was to turn very traditional in dress, car, and also in a new watch that fit into what I wanted to project, but which was very different from what I felt like. Now, that is past, I have eased into my job and generally relaxed and of course fallen very hard for watches for their own sake. While I now appreciate their inner beauty and authenticity, I still think that they express less what I am, but more what I would like to be, if that makes sense. Also, part of me still struggles with the luxury aspect of watches - my prevous hobbies all involved things that could be pricey but they were related to activities (musical instruments, or telescopes) and no themselves the focus as watches are.

So thanks for your posts. Reading them is both fun and illuminating and of course these great pictures of these great watches - wonderful combination.

 

Best

Andreas

Perhaps one of the benefits of having lived a bit longer and been through some pretty significant life experiences, good and bad, is that I am more comfortable with who I've become than I used to be -- and have made enough mistakes and had the opportunity to remedy enough of them that I'm getting closer to the "self-perceived symmetry" that you describe so eloquently.

Even now, I am sure that various possessions of mine are more aspirational than they are expressions of current identity.  And, along the way, many things have turned out to be expressions of past identities, and as a result fallen by the wayside.  Being comfortable with that journey is, I suppose, a lot of what this thread is about -- and I thank you for pointing it out, as I had not thought of it in that way before reading your post.

Oh -- and next time, I promise to include some photos!

Best,

Gary

I seek to purchase watches which exhibit the makers mark so to speak and to me are the brand.

For some brands this is easy - Rolex - pick any model, for others less so - Patek - Calatrava or minute repeater, perpetual calendar etc?

Many brands commision external designers to create miniature marvels of watchmaking which to me are excellent examples of their designer's DNA but less so for the brand in question.  Bulgari seem to be doing this - for me their most authentic piece is the Snake watch which talks to me about their prowess as a jeweller.

I choose the Panerai 112 with the Unitas movement rather than the 312 with the in-house automatic.  The Unitas movement perfectly epitomises to me what Panerai is all about.

My next aquisition will be a Vacheron Constantin which has to have the ultra-thin 1003 movement as to me the watches with this movement built VC's reputation.  I don't have any Audemars watches in my collection but when I do it will be a simple Royal Oak, not the Offshore.