Horological Meandering

Following is a post I made today to the Help Desk Forum.  I am repeating it here because I was uncertain of the proper forum to raise this question.  I apologize for the duplication. 

 

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I have encountered some issues with a recent purchase and am looking for advice (both technical and practical).

As background, I have been collecting watches for about 25 years. I have what can "at best" be described a rudimentary knowledge of how a watch works. As with most collectors, my initial purchases were modest, but increased as my interest grew and my checkbook would permit. I have owned or currently own chronographs (including a split second flyback), perpetual calendars, complete calendar watches, as well as simple mechanical and automatic watches, both with and without second hands and date functions. In none of those watches have I experienced the issue described below.

My most recent purchase was an expensive (at least for me) watch with a second hand and minute markers; and, therein lies the issue. When I first set the time of the watch, I set the minute hand on a minute marker as the second hand passed across the 12 position (i.e., "0" seconds). The mechanism doesn't "hack", but I have several watches like that and have never had a problem accuractely setting those watches; nor did I have a problem setting this watch. For the next few minutes, the minute and second hands were in perfect sync (as the second hand crossed 0 seconds, the minute hand lined up perfectly with the minute marker). However, after several minutes had lapsed, I noticed that a variance between the minute hand and the second hand was present. Throughout the hour, the variance ranged from approximately +/- 3 seconds to as much as + 20 seconds (i.e., when the minute hand was exactly on the minute marker, the second hand was at 20 seconds after the 0 seconds start position). However, upon the lapse of one hour the minute and second hands were again in perfect sync. Over time, I observed that the same pattern of lack of synchronicity within any particular hour generally repeated in each subsequent hour. My first thought was that there was an imperfection in the dial. Upon reflection, that did not seem likely since the variance, although constant, did not occur at the same time during the hour if the watch was set at a different time (i.e., if I set the watch at 12:00 vs. 1:17, I would still have an approximate 20 second variance during the hour, albeit not at the same time). I would add that the watch is extremely accurate from hour to hour by comparison of the second hand to a regulated hour tone on the radio.

My initial excitement and enthusiasm for this magnificent watch began to seriously wane. I contacted the AD where I purchased the watch. The AD contacted the manufacturer and my watch was sent to Switzerland for evaluation in a controlled atmosphere. After a month of analysis, the manufacturer confirmed that the dial was accurate. The explanation of the variance from accurate synchronization of the minute and second hands was as follows:

"Regarding the watch "missing" the minute mark. It was sent to Geneva and thoroughly controlled. Given the length of the hand, the 'error' that your customer witnessed (being a little off sometimes) cannot be corrected at this time. No ... [X brand watch] ... allows to stop the second, so it is already difficult to 'start' it at exactly the minute marker. Furtherermore, given the length, it is almost impossible to have the teeth of the minute wheel perfect. Remember that a few microns of excess matter, would show a little difference at the minute marker.

Please assure that if ... [X brand] ... finds a way to minimize this error deviation, we will recall this watch and do the proper changes."

The watch was returned to me after being controlled for accuracy and water resistance.

I am decidedly uneasy with this response. The manufacturer has acknowledged that there is a problem with the watch for which it has no solution. Significantly, the response does not indicate whether the manufacturer is even working on ways to correct the problem. Moreover, the response for someone with my limited knowledge of the operation of watches is "unintelligible". For example, I do not understand why the length of what I assume is the minute hand would cause it to be at variance from syncing with the second hand. The length of the minute hand does not seem affect (or I do not believe it affects) the syncing in any other watch that I own. Maybe the other watch brands that I own resolved the issue. Perhaps I am too demanding and expect far more than is reasonable to expect from this timepiece. However, as noted above, I have not experienced anything like this issue in any of the other watches I have owned. Perhaps the answer that X brand gave to me is completely understandible and generally acceptable to the consuming public, and that I "just don't get it". If that's the case, I may be willing to live with that answer. Finally, I find it hard to believe that I am the only person to discern this issue and that it has not been the topic of discussion elsewhere. There is some internet chatter on syncing minute and second hands, but that seems to reflect the issue of "play" in the minute hand.

In any event, I am presently not accepting of the response I have received and would appreciate any input and advice you may have on the above issues.

Thanks,

Joehank

I don't have the technical answers you are seeking but I think the manufacture was trying to relate the fact that imperfections in the teeth of the gears can translate into slight changes on the rotation of the seconds hand pinion.  This change in rotation is then translated into a deviation at the tip of the seconds hand.  The longer the seconds hand, the larger the arc/deviation.

The imperfections are a limitation of manufacturing techniques and giving the brand the benefit of the doubt not a purposeful "defect"

I suspect most of us are not looking as closely as you are.  

"I would add that the watch is extremely accurate from hour to hour by comparison of the second hand to a regulated hour tone on the radio".  This is good enough for me.

If you are interested in having the ability to set/coordinate your minute hand with the seconds hand as you are setting a wach the best choice out there is the GO Senator Chronometer or if your pocketbook is thick and you have godlike patience I would choose the Volker Vyskocil V-30

Best, Mike

 

It is making life SO much easier for me.

Thank you. Your response is helpful.

 

Joehank

Thanks, Mike.

 

Your response is far more intelligible than that of the manufacturer.  I appreciate the input.  I looked up the Volker Vyskocil V-30; a very impressive watch.  Had I known of it before my last purchase I might have considered it and saved some dollars in the process. 

 

Joehank

... First of all, we must understand that in most watches the minute hand is fixed to the cannon, which in turn is snapped on to a wheel in the power train. Therefore I can see no reason for any slop here, since the centre wheel (on which the cannon is snapped on) is always in the power train. Of course, if your watch is constructed differently, what I have said is invalid. Traditionally the hour hand, on the other hand, is in a following train with no power. So this can slop about if the gearing is not well matched.

I still feel your dial might be a little offset. This can be confirmed in the following way.

Synchronise the second and minute hands on the hour (both hands at 12 o'clock). Observe the watch every hour on the hour, the hands should always be synchronised.

Now synchronise them at some other time, say at 24 past the hour (second hand at 12 o'clock and minute hand at 24 minutes). If the hands are synchronised at every 24 past the hour it will confirm that the dial is offset.

Hope this helps

Aditya

Aditya:

 

Thank you for your response.  I don't believe that the first part is applicable since the second hand is not attached to the center post but is contained in a offset subsidiary dial. 

 

I will try the dial test you suggested.

 

Joehank

Hi Joehank,

I've been asked by a colleague watchmaker to chime in on the questions you raised here.

The problem you describe is not exclusive to any one brand. In fact, there has been much diiscussion about this subject on many watch forums.

There is a small amount of play in the gearing of the minute hand which doesn't follow the precise movements of the small second hand. Even when there exists a 'stop hack' it is not guaranteed that every time the second hand comes up to the top at 60 will the minute hand follow in unison. One way to compensate for the 'play' in the gears is to advance the minute hand by a few minutes and the slowly turn the minute hand BACKWARDS to the precise time with the second hand.

With reference to the technical explanation you received from the company about the 'length' of the minute hand, what they meant is the length of time it takes for the minute hand to make a complete revolution compounds the above mentioned 'play' in the gears which results in a short term lack of precise synchronization between the minute and second hands. This explains why after time, as the differential play works in reverse, the synchronization takes effect until the next cycle.

I've attempted to assure you that with mechanical timepieces this problem does not represent a major deficiency with a given brand but rather demonstrates some limitations commonly found throughout many of even luxury brands.

Regards,
Jack Freedman

I don't know of the mechanics, but I wonder if the play in the gearing will mean that the watch minute hand will appear ahead in the first half of the hour (eg at 15 past the hour) and behind in the second half of the hour (eg at 45 minutes) if you do your checking with the watch in the vertical (12 up) position since gravity will want to pull the minute hand towards 6 o'clock when held vertically with 12 up.  I once handled a watch which had so much play that I could change the time by 3-5 minutes simply by tilting the watch...

While my experience agrees with Jack's explanation - some watches have more 'play' in the minute hand and after setting the watch it takes a few seconds (let's say 15-25 seconds) for the minute hand to start moving - I think you are describing something different. In my scenario, once the minute hand starts to move, it tracks the seconds hand, although it may be a few seconds out.

What you are describing seems to be that the seconds hand is out of sync with the minute hand for only PART of the hour (and it is the same part of the hour each time). It sounds more like a dial misalignment issue, which is hard to photograph because of all the parallax issues.

Difficult but interesting question!

Andrew

I have several watches which exhibit the same "problems" as you have mentioned.

Sorry I have not sooner respond to your posts.  Life sometimes interferes with our other "distractive" activities.  In this case, it was spending time with my grandchildren that took precedence over getting an answer to my watch question.  That normally will trump everything else that I am doing. 

To all who responded to my original post, please accept my thanks.  You have eased my concerns and clearly added to my knowledge of watches.  Your responses prove the value of a watch site like "The Purist".   

I now understand that I did not purchase an expensive anomaly; that my watch is operating properly and that the manufacturer's explanation, while decidedly terse and less than clear, is correct and describes a normal operation.  You have renewed my enthusiasm for this watch.

I intentionally did not disclose the manufacturer because I did not want to be seen as taking aim at anyone in a public venue.  That is also why I have not (and would prefer to not) post any pictures.  Nor did I believe that the AD should be identified; it has done everything I could have expected or anticipated to assure my satisfaction with this purchase.  

For those who still would like more information on this watch, please email me. 

Thanks, again,

 

Joehank   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m experiencing a similar issue with a newly acquired very high end Swiss watch. This watch doesn’t have a second hand, only minute hand. And I’ve noticed in the last few weeks that it would be 15-30second fast on the right hand side of the dial (first half of an hour) but accurate on the left hand side of the dial (second half of an hour). Timegrapher displays similar rate for these halves in a given position, which led to my discovery that it must be unrelated to the movement.  Glad to see at least it’s not an unusual occurrence… does greatly temper my enthusiasm for this watch though. Admittedly it also has other issues that I may need to get addressed This message has been edited by India Whiskey Charlie on 2025-08-07 00:07:08

But the answers above should give you a clue as to the reason for the seemingly odd behavior.
The big question is does the watch keep good time over the day or week?