Comments:
Citizen 51-2273
Some others said Cueropo de Infanteria, but I don't see the meaning and the necessity for the militaries by foot to have a diving watch...
Very interesting piece of history, my friend...
All the best,.
Nicolas
Will try to post something about these CIs later in October / November.
This is a very interesting topic.
I am impatient to discuss that with you.
All the best.
Nicolas
it is always fascinating yet frustrating trying to find out information on military watches, but you seem to have done well in your research in these pieces.
Citizen made and still do make excellent dive watches with bomb proof movements so its not a surprise that they were purchased for military use.
enjoy your new aquisition and when i have time i will write a post on a 1964 Citizen with some ingenious features.
best
Graham
An interesting diving watch with military provenance...Citizen reference 51-2273
NB: Updated today from 2013.
Hello friends!
I wish to share a recent addition to my collection of diving watches.
It is a modest timepiece which clearly proves that a watch needs not to be an expensive or sophisticated one, to be considered one of the most valuable or the favorite of our collections.
Citizen 51-2273
This watch came to my hands rather unexpectedly, two weeks ago, during a little gathering of local watch aficionados. One of the timepiece collectors present in the gathering, was Juan, a good friend of mine, with whom I share the passion for watches.
A couple of months ago, my friend had told me that he had found three diving watches which originally belonged to a group of timepieces bought in the early 1980´s by the Argentine Navy to be issued to members of their groups of Tactical Divers, as they call their special forces teams deployed by Air and Sea and speciallized in underwater missions.
These watches were of the Citizen brand, and each of them was marked on the back case with an additional five figures number, for internal control by the Navy Stores. These watches, bought in an unknown quantity, were issued to the special troops, while the high rank members received an also unknown number of Rolex and Tudor Submariners.
A few days after buying these three Citizens for a very low sum, my friend made another great find: one of the same period Tudor Submariners with the Navy markings on the back, could be purchased by him in a very lucky deal.
As said before, two weeks ago I met my friend for our little GTG with other local fellow collectors. I was very excited when my friend handled me the Tudor, (a beautifully patinated and great condition snow flake Sub), and the three Citizens he had there for me to view. It surely was an impresive great find!
After viewing that Tudor with great excitement I also examined the three Citizens.
I thought that though they were very simple and modest in comparison with the Tudor, they were a most interesting piece of history, with a proved provenance from the Special Group of Navy Divers.
The three watches were slightly different, some with paddle hour hands, other with Mercedes hour hand, one without crown guards, and two with crown guards but different crown size.
As I know very little about Japanese watches, all three seemed very similar to me, so that my friend pointed me those differences.
On the occassion, I didn´t paid much attention to the reference numbers. As a matter of fact, I didn´t knew at that moment, the meaning of those numbers showing on the backs of these timepieces.
The important thing to note, is that all three watches got the five digits Navy Store numbers on their case backs.
I congratulatd my friend and told him how nice and lucky finding he had done, and how much I liked every one of them.
Then I was greatly and nicely surprised to hear my friend offering me: "you may chose the one you like best of the three Citizens, and get it for the same price I paid for it."
I couldn´t believe what I was hearing, and after a few seconds of confusion due to my surprise, my friend repeated his offer. As you may understand, I couldn´t resist to accept his kind proposal. I chose one of them, the one I liked best.
This is the watch I have now on my wrist, while I write this post. It is a Citizen reference 51-2273, made in august 1980. It has an automatic movement caliber 8200 inside, known to be a tough and dependable one.
The watch is big (42 mm case) and looks so strong. It came with no straps, so as soon as I arrived home, I tried a couple of Natos, and finally settled with a black nylon set.
Together with the usual factory inscriptions, its case back sports the Navy Stores five digit control number 61xxx.
It is a piece of our military diving story, and it instantly became a favorite in my collection, which will allways remind me the generous gesture of friendship from my good friend Juan. One of my most valuable pieces in my collection!
I wish you´ll like it as much as I do. Very cordially, Abel.
Citizen reference 51-2273
Citizen reference 51-2273
A few questions, Abel.
If I got you well, this watch was bought in the Navy Stores by the Argentinian Navy?
Is the date in Japanese? ( The day, not the date, sorry ).
Do you have the meanings of these 5 figures?
Aaah, and as per the Argentinian Tudors, what references does your friend have? Don't tell me 7924!!!! Please, no!!! 
Congratulations, my friend, on an interesting find!
Un abrazo.
Nicolas
Well, the new Tudor Big Crown is a Snowflake, then... ;)
And there were some 7924 which were issued for the Argentinian Army, the famous CI. So I am wondering if, by chance, we could see one of them!
Best,
Nicolas
Ha ha you are right on the Black Bay one!...
But as Abel refers to a snowflake I guess it is the same than the ones issued to M.N, South Afracan...
Issued 7924s...I've never seen one with military markings, do you? would be interested to see that!...
Matt
Yes, I sawa few, and I am working on a topic about them.
The Argentinian Army had the 7924, the 7928, and the 7016, if we are speaking about Tudor Submariners.
All marked " CI ".
Best,
Nicolas
Hello Nicolas! I´m glad you like this watch and story, and ...
... I suspected you could be interested in the story behing our military diving watches, as they have certain connection with Rolex and Tudors.
We know very little about these watches, as it is very usual with historical facts in my Country, they are very difficult to come by to the true details, specially if related with the military.
Now, I can answer your questions:
These watches were originally purchased by the Argentine Navy (Armada Argentina) in the 1980´s, to be issued to their special Underwater Operation Forces, called Buzos Tacticos.
The storage was made at their Naval Stores, and distributed to the troops, and required a 5 digit number as control.
These three Citizens, plus de Tudor were bought a few months ago to a seller who specializes in buying and selling vintage watches. This man reportedly had these watches in his possesion since the mid 1990´s.
As it has been explained in this thread, these watches come with a mechanism which can set the date in oriental or in English language. I left it in the oriental one, because I usually do not pay attention to the date feature of my watches, and do not bother to set the date on them.
The date on Sunday is in red, other days in black. I am presently set in English.
we do not know the meaning of 5 numbers. I feel it is only an internal control number requested by the Navy.
In Submariners and Tudors, the number is followed by the letters "Ci" which originally we thought it meant
"Cuerpo de Ingenieros" belonging to the Argentine Army, an special force of "zappers" who also employ military divers.
It seems now, that it is not the case. These watches are thought to belong to the Navy (Armada) and this the exact meaning of "Ci" is unknown.
My friend got a blue Tudor snowflake, with crown guards, reference 9411/0. It is marked with a 5 digit number followed by Ci on the back.
I see that the Type of numerals used in marking these backs, is very similar to that type used on Comex.
There is a strong conection between the Argentine Navy and Comex, in the perido of late 1970´s through 1980´s, with members of the prestigious Argentina Navy Escuela de Buceo (Diving School) were sent to Comex for special deep diving training, and the Escuela received a complete renewal of the latest in equipment, hyperbaric chambers, etc. in those far years.
These changes came as result of an special traty made by the Navy with the Petrol Companies working in our land, which supplied the economic means, to finance the newest equipments and techniques, and in exchange, the Escuela supplied the required highly specialized training and technical support to civilian divers required in the maintenance of off shore oil platforms.
It is said that Rolex supplied these Rolex/Tudor watches through the Comex offices in those years, but as told, these is information that I couldn´t certify with documents, though the facts I am telling about the Oil Companies and Comex training is a very well known fact.
I will be sending you by PM two links in Spanish related with the Citizen Navy watches and some additional info soon.
Glad you find this addition to my collection of interest!
Un abrazo mi amigo!
Afectuosamente, Abel.
We know very little about these watches, as it is very usual with historical facts in my Country, they are very difficult to come by to the true details, specially if related with the military.
Now, I can answer your questions:
These watches were originally purchased by the Argentine Navy (Armada Argentina) in the 1980´s, to be issued to their special Underwater Operation Forces, called Buzos Tacticos.
The storage was made at their Naval Stores, and distributed to the troops, and required a 5 digit number as control.
These three Citizens, plus de Tudor were bought a few months ago to a seller who specializes in buying and selling vintage watches. This man reportedly had these watches in his possesion since the mid 1990´s.
As it has been explained in this thread, these watches come with a mechanism which can set the date in oriental or in English language. I left it in the oriental one, because I usually do not pay attention to the date feature of my watches, and do not bother to set the date on them.
The date on Sunday is in red, other days in black. I am presently set in English.
we do not know the meaning of 5 numbers. I feel it is only an internal control number requested by the Navy.
In Submariners and Tudors, the number is followed by the letters "Ci" which originally we thought it meant
"Cuerpo de Ingenieros" belonging to the Argentine Army, an special force of "zappers" who also employ military divers.
It seems now, that it is not the case. These watches are thought to belong to the Navy (Armada) and this the exact meaning of "Ci" is unknown.
My friend got a blue Tudor snowflake, with crown guards, reference 9411/0. It is marked with a 5 digit number followed by Ci on the back.
I see that the Type of numerals used in marking these backs, is very similar to that type used on Comex.
There is a strong conection between the Argentine Navy and Comex, in the perido of late 1970´s through 1980´s, with members of the prestigious Argentina Navy Escuela de Buceo (Diving School) were sent to Comex for special deep diving training, and the Escuela received a complete renewal of the latest in equipment, hyperbaric chambers, etc. in those far years.
These changes came as result of an special traty made by the Navy with the Petrol Companies working in our land, which supplied the economic means, to finance the newest equipments and techniques, and in exchange, the Escuela supplied the required highly specialized training and technical support to civilian divers required in the maintenance of off shore oil platforms.
It is said that Rolex supplied these Rolex/Tudor watches through the Comex offices in those years, but as told, these is information that I couldn´t certify with documents, though the facts I am telling about the Oil Companies and Comex training is a very well known fact.
I will be sending you by PM two links in Spanish related with the Citizen Navy watches and some additional info soon.
Glad you find this addition to my collection of interest!
Un abrazo mi amigo!
Afectuosamente, Abel.
CI stands for Cuerpo De Ingenieros, for me.
Some others said Cueropo de Infanteria, but I don't see the meaning and the necessity for the militaries by foot to have a diving watch...
Very interesting piece of history, my friend...
All the best,.
Nicolas
Dear Nicolas: regarding the initials Ci...
... you know I have been trying to solve the mistery behind these watches for some time now.
My first impression was to agree with you, but as time passed, I changed my mind. Please note:
Cuerpo de Ingenieros or Compañìa de Ingenieros, is a zappers company belonging to the Army, not the Navy.
Though they got some members trained in U/W work this is not their speciality.
(By the way their divers as all military divers of any local Armed Forces are trained at the Navy Escuela de Buceo, in Mar del Plata city.)
By the other hand: if these watches really belonged to Compañía de Ingenieros, the initials of the Company should be C.I., not C.i, that is both letters in Capital letters, as in MN for Marine Nationale, and not "Mn".
BUT... these watches where bought by the Navy (Armada República Argentina... initials "ARA")
Please note: some Rolex Submariners are identified with the initials "A.R.A." above Submariner on the dials.
These watches where procured during the period of vinculation of our A.R.A. with Comex, (about 1978/79 through 1980´s) and I suspect there is a strong connection with Comex/Rolex in the dealing to supply these watches to our Navy. It is very possible that these watches were supplied not directly by Rolex, but from stocks of Comex itself!
I am very sure that If you get some good contact at Comex, they should explain this mistery better than any Argentine source.
Now, which is the real meaning of "C. i."? ... I suspect that these initials have nothing to do with the name of the Company or Corps which actually used the watches, but means something completely different.
For example: (and just guessing) "61.xxx Codigo de identificación" (Code of identification). In this case, it is acceptable that the first intitial is in Capital letter, and not the second.
Or ... may be, just guessing again... these intials "C.i." could have some connection with "Comex" being that the reason of the first initial, though I have not explanation for the "i" in this case. (e.g. "Comex instrument").
I hope these ramblings can be helpful to you, and eagerly look forward to your post with the results of your investigation.
I send you my best cordial regards,
Un abrazo mi amigo, y mucha suerte con esta importante investigación!!
Abel.
My first impression was to agree with you, but as time passed, I changed my mind. Please note:
Cuerpo de Ingenieros or Compañìa de Ingenieros, is a zappers company belonging to the Army, not the Navy.
Though they got some members trained in U/W work this is not their speciality.
(By the way their divers as all military divers of any local Armed Forces are trained at the Navy Escuela de Buceo, in Mar del Plata city.)
By the other hand: if these watches really belonged to Compañía de Ingenieros, the initials of the Company should be C.I., not C.i, that is both letters in Capital letters, as in MN for Marine Nationale, and not "Mn".
BUT... these watches where bought by the Navy (Armada República Argentina... initials "ARA")
Please note: some Rolex Submariners are identified with the initials "A.R.A." above Submariner on the dials.
These watches where procured during the period of vinculation of our A.R.A. with Comex, (about 1978/79 through 1980´s) and I suspect there is a strong connection with Comex/Rolex in the dealing to supply these watches to our Navy. It is very possible that these watches were supplied not directly by Rolex, but from stocks of Comex itself!
I am very sure that If you get some good contact at Comex, they should explain this mistery better than any Argentine source.
Now, which is the real meaning of "C. i."? ... I suspect that these initials have nothing to do with the name of the Company or Corps which actually used the watches, but means something completely different.
For example: (and just guessing) "61.xxx Codigo de identificación" (Code of identification). In this case, it is acceptable that the first intitial is in Capital letter, and not the second.
Or ... may be, just guessing again... these intials "C.i." could have some connection with "Comex" being that the reason of the first initial, though I have not explanation for the "i" in this case. (e.g. "Comex instrument").
I hope these ramblings can be helpful to you, and eagerly look forward to your post with the results of your investigation.
I send you my best cordial regards,
Un abrazo mi amigo, y mucha suerte con esta importante investigación!!
Abel.
Don´t worry my dear friend... you´ll find the true path soon!...
By the way: I guessed a more probable meaning for Ci: "Codigo de inventario" (inventory code)
I´m almos sure this is the more probable meaning of these initials!
Good luck my friend!
Un abrazo afectuoso, Abel.
I´m almos sure this is the more probable meaning of these initials!
Good luck my friend!
Un abrazo afectuoso, Abel.
Some great infomation and background there, Abel.
...and an intriguing watch. I have a couple of non-military Citizen divers of this era, nothing as interesting as your example.
All that information means I now have to delve into my Oilfield diving books to look at Argentina's experiences.
Once again, thank you.
Thank you for your comments BDLJ! If you are interested in...
... diving and its vinculation with oilrigs, there is somo interesting information in a link I will send you by PM.
Best cordial regards, Abel.
Best cordial regards, Abel.
Hi Abel I think I figured it out.
612 is class of 64 of the guardia infanteria which where active between 62 and 68, presesor to the comando infanteria the 1 mrn Coim .
C,I, I agree the abrivation stands for Cedula de indentification .
so class of 1962 recieved their comision in1964 -65 612
1963 in 1965- 66 - 613
64 in 1966- 67 - 614
65 in 1967-1968 - 615
With the early subs in 1969 the guardia infanteria was relieved of there comision and absorbed in to marine bat no 1
C,I, I agree the abrivation stands for Cedula de indentification .
so class of 1962 recieved their comision in1964 -65 612
1963 in 1965- 66 - 613
64 in 1966- 67 - 614
65 in 1967-1968 - 615
With the early subs in 1969 the guardia infanteria was relieved of there comision and absorbed in to marine bat no 1
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts Americano...
... it makes interesting reading for sure.
I only wish we could confirm this somehow with a military source... though we both know it is not easy here!
Thank you again my friend! Cheers! Abel.
I only wish we could confirm this somehow with a military source... though we both know it is not easy here!
Thank you again my friend! Cheers! Abel.
It gets better
The next are 611 Rolex subs class of 69 + 2=71.
It even coincides with the introduction of the various models Tudor and Rolex
It even coincides with the introduction of the various models Tudor and Rolex
Fantastic info !
Ever since I bought my tudor snowflake Ci, I am very interested in these watches. Like you I did a lot of research and managed to build a database that now has 32 examples. Most of them are ref 7928, 2 ref 7016 and 3 ref 9411. Unfortunately, not all data is complete. Mine btw is a ref 7016 snowflake. Anyway, I have been reading this thread and especially your thoughts with much interest. Most interesting indeed.
Recently, I bought another presumably Argentine issued Tudor Snowflake, a ref 9411, but this one has a different engraving: I.A. xxxx, where the xxxx represents a four digit number. The type of engraving is the same as in the Ci as well as in the Comex. Have you seen these before ? Will post a picture later.
Best,
Mark
Hello, Mark.
Will try to post something about these CIs later in October / November.
This is a very interesting topic.
I am impatient to discuss that with you.
All the best.
Nicolas
Hello Nicolas
Great, looking forward to it. If you happen to have any info on serials and issue number that you would be willing to share (database) please send me an email.
Best,
Mark
nice story!
Hey Abel, pretty funky and ice story!...funny to think that watches could be distributed in Argentina with the day in Chinese/Japanese? markings!?...I like these kind of stories!...
thanks for sharing!
Matt
I don't know about this specific watch ...
But it's a common practice for oriental watches to have two sets of language for the same weekday.
One in oriental symbols (Kanji?) and another on an Occidental language.
When the date changes, the weekday changes (slowly) to the correct language setting.
Cheers,
Nilo
One in oriental symbols (Kanji?) and another on an Occidental language.
When the date changes, the weekday changes (slowly) to the correct language setting.
Cheers,
Nilo
This is also standard on ETA movements too...
The day rings have two languages which reduces the number of parts references to cover all the languages needed.
My Mido Commander (ETA 2824-A2) has a German and English day wheel, for example.
Don
This message has been edited by DonCorson on 2013-05-20 06:23:20
My Mido Commander (ETA 2824-A2) has a German and English day wheel, for example.
Don
This message has been edited by DonCorson on 2013-05-20 06:23:20
Thank you Don ...
I didn't know about this on ETA.
I had one (my wife in fact) that had this movement but the week days were only in Turkish!
Thanks,
Nilo
I had one (my wife in fact) that had this movement but the week days were only in Turkish!
Thanks,
Nilo
Thank you Don! Didn´t know that ETA had a similar feature...
... till reading your explanation. As a matter of fact, didn´t know about this feature in my Citizen, till I tried to change the date, intrigued by the oriental inscriptions in the date window!
Thank you for your explanation.
Kind regards, Abel.
Thank you for your explanation.
Kind regards, Abel.
Hello Nilo! Yes it is exactly as you describe! Thank you! Kind rgds! [nt]
No message body
Thank you Matt for your comments...
... yes it is a very funly watch with an image typical of 1970´s diving watches, and an interesting story behind.
The date can be set in oriental or in English language.
I do not pay attention to setting the date in any of my watches anyway. The date is in red letters on Sundays.
I´m presently wearing the watch with the date in English, but today is Monday, and the watch shows the red Sunday date!!
Best cordial regards, Abel.
The date can be set in oriental or in English language.
I do not pay attention to setting the date in any of my watches anyway. The date is in red letters on Sundays.
I´m presently wearing the watch with the date in English, but today is Monday, and the watch shows the red Sunday date!!
Best cordial regards, Abel.
a great aquisition Abel
it is always fascinating yet frustrating trying to find out information on military watches, but you seem to have done well in your research in these pieces.
Citizen made and still do make excellent dive watches with bomb proof movements so its not a surprise that they were purchased for military use.
enjoy your new aquisition and when i have time i will write a post on a 1964 Citizen with some ingenious features.
best
Graham
Hello Dear Graham! Thank you so much for your kind...
... comments. I´m glad you like the timepiece and its story.
You are right: it is so frustrating not to find explanations to the many questions these military watches bring to collectors. That´s specially bad in some Countries like mine, where the preservation of historical pieces gets so little attention, as well as to the work of researchers.
I look forward to read about your own 64 Citizen diver soon!
I send you my most cordial regards, Abel.
You are right: it is so frustrating not to find explanations to the many questions these military watches bring to collectors. That´s specially bad in some Countries like mine, where the preservation of historical pieces gets so little attention, as well as to the work of researchers.
I look forward to read about your own 64 Citizen diver soon!
I send you my most cordial regards, Abel.