Jaeger-LeCoultre

I posted the following comment in reply to Jaeger92’s thread on the rather amazing Cal 101 and thought maybe I start a thread on the same for discussion and maybe to verify if perhaps there is some truth in what I have heard of JLC from some in the past.

Basically, I’ve wondered why JLC has in the past, time and again, received some stick for not being one of the leading higher tier brands along Lange or Patek.  Granted, for MOST of their pieces IMO, the finish is not of the standard of Lange but I do not think they are too far off patek if at all (don;t flame me patek fans, I have one too).

For me, for the longest time without knowing the little that I know now of watches, I’ve always looked to JLC and the reverso as an expensive watch that I’ve always wanted.  Now however, being immersed in most things horological for just over a year and having acquired a few pieces, I have heard and read a few times of Jaeger being described as a luxury brand for the masses or the cheapest high end manufacturer (supposedly due to the reason that their watches are the cheapest to manufacture.  Again this is what I hear and Jaeger fans, don;t flame me, I just bought one for my wife and am considering a Reverso Grande of sorts to accompany that purchase).  Maybe it’s due to the many models they have introduced after the reverso range (which again for my novice opinion, is JLC defined) that some may argue is an attempt to be everything to everyone which almost always never works out in the long term.

So going back to Jaeger92’s Cal 101 thread as a case in point.  Whether it is manufactured at a low cost, which if it’s the case, it’s a credit to JLC management (I mean which business doesn’t want to keep cost low and margins high and hopefully without sacrificing quality of the end product) , it should be by any count, seen as an engineering work of art then and now.  Even more so, it should also help to perhaps better posiiton JLC as a manufacture that should be known more for it’s movement research, design and expertise?  After all, the Cal 101 as we have seen is followed by the interesting movement of the Duometre and Triptyque (and probably quite a few other pioneering calibers in between) both of which I think should be held at least in above average movement manufacturing regard no?

I may be off base with my comments above and for that I ask pardon for this always learning novice.  My understanding of movement techicals is still very much in infancy and unrefined and maybe this causes me to miss something in some comments passed? 

So what are your thoughts about JLC perhaps being a tier 2 manufacture for want of a better descriptor?

JLC has been around for more than 175 years has engineered and designed more than 1000 calibres, and has provided famous brands with calibres to equip their watches (although these brands are usually quite about that).
the recent incredible masterpieces such as duometre, tryptique, gyrotourbillon, and now hybris mecanica show how ingenious this brand can be and demonstrate that they are capable of manufacturing watches with any sort of quality level from " very high" to super very high (now how high is the sky of patek or Lange is to a certain extend a matter of personal judgment).

the price range of JLC goes from luxuous " affordable" watch, to "you need to crack a bank" level. What I find interesting is that the value for money (imho) is always very high. While some of the watches woudl cost the price of my appartment, the amount of work required to design, engineer, test and make these mechanical marvels is to a certain extend proportional to the price tag. Of course, the rarity and the "uniqueness' of super high complications will be sold at a premium which, in some occasion is possible to question, but, in the end, if the very high watches of the brand are very expensive, this is good for the more modest collectors as the company won't need to have even higher margins on more affordable models.

in terms of competitors, I would think that they are definitely competiting with Patek, Lange and VC, IMHO. but each of these competitors seem to have a more restrictive range of products, prossibly a smaller number of watches produced per year, and eventually, fewer new complications coming to market in the recent years.

Patek is the king of auctions and JLC is definitely not there in that sector. The vintage JLC are mostly reaching modest levels in public auctions. I like that! as I endeavoured to start collecting vintage JLC watches and, had they been lange or patek, I would surely be looking at far less pieces in my box than with JLC.

Issuing soon the most complicated wristwatch ever manufactured so far by any brand is to me a clear strategic message that JLC wants to lead and this should hopefully push a handful of brands in a competition where amateurs like us will have a lot to enjoy and discover (even if we are going to have to find a way to win the lotery several times in a row now).

regarding the "luxury brand for the masses", I'd say that a brand with a crown emblem is producing a million watches per year, compared to the possible 60,000 watches of JLC. The crowned one is the luxury brand for the masses.
Having said that, nobody can ignore the importance of markteing in our world nowadays and luxury products do come with very specific marketing plans which tend to expend the markets by providing "luxury for the masses". Again, if the company is focused on quality, has a way to sell well their entry level products and have the ethic not ot super overcharge for the higher end products, then I am surely fine with that sort of luxury for the masses.

in terms of watches, 90-95% of the world is wearing a cheap quartz watch.

JLC's seldom have service issues, and, when they do, are usually repaired quickly (unlike PP or VC or L&S - which can take up to 11 months - and w/o apology). Remember: level of hand-finishing DOES NOT increase performance, except, possibly, where rubies and sink-holes are considered. So, if JLC's finish of MUT is not quite at the level of the Calatrava, I'll live with the 50% lower price for the MUT, which we ALL know has been written about over and over again, and is considered to possibly be "the finest watch ever made, regardless of complication" in its category (read: NOT price range).

JLC doesn't "pad" the auctions, the way PP (and recently Breguet) notoriously does, and I appreciate that. Rather, they focus on product development. So they really do offer something for *almost* everyone, and they can do this due to the number of staff at LeSentier.

It's funny how people WITHIN the industry use JLC as the reference of creativity, and not PP, AP, VC (although I would put GO right behind them, and UN third).

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I don't (personally) think PP is 1/2 the company JLC is at twice (or more) the price.

Whew!

-Dean

I would add that JLC offers a wide range of complications in stainless steel and titanium unlike PP, Lange and VC. This obviously makes their watches even more accessible to enthusiasts and is something I certainly appreciate.  I do get the feeling that JLC are becoming more revered due to their haute horologie masterpieces and consistent innovation. I am not sure if they are considered tier 2 anymore. Tier 1b at the very least

I mean how can they not be with the many creations of late (hybris, triptyque etc) and I am sure in the past.

Patek does make some rather incredible movements but as a whole I do not personally find them as innovative and unusual as JLC. One of Patek's goals is to maintain that Patek-aura in even their most simple movements, thereby justifying a price tag of approx $20k for even a Calatrava. Despite this aura, at my age I cannot justify that amount of money for a relatively simple watch.

People chuckle when the day/date of their relatively new perpetual calendar Patek watch (ex. 5146) does not properly change and it must spend a few months at Henri Stern agency. Patek ownership seems similar to the frequent maintenance visits that a Ferrari owner encounters with his handcrafted automotive beauty! Part of the ownership experience somehow also includes these maintenance issues. I see Jaeger as a high end watch company with dependable, strong and innovative movements, maybe like a Porsche. The company is innovative but its top priority does not appear to be in maintaining that aura of being am unbelievably austere manufacture, where only the finest customers are allowed to be considered worthy of purchasing a new model. Some of the Porsche models cost far less than a Ferrari, but some cost well above most Ferrari costs (Carrera GT). Porsche service like JLC service is not cheap, but at the same time frequent maintenance is usually not required to keep these beauties properly operating.

I think the PP 5070 is an interesting watch but personally do not see all the allure to that basic chronograph. I would rather have a more complicated and unusual JLC. JLC appears to be the type watch company that constantly works hard to develop cutting innovation in their movements; whether in complication, durability and/or size. I was looking for a mechanical alarm watch and selected a JLC Master Compressor Memovox for its appearance, sportiness, and the prestigious name of JLC. Patek seems like too fragile a watch-brand to not be handled in an area where everyone is wearing some short of formal attire!!

I have handled a good number of Pateks since I became interested in watches 10 years ago and through my eyes, I do not find their movements to be so incredible relative to JLC. Honestly is a PP Minute Repeater somehow superior to a JLC Minute Repeater?

JLC caters to a much larger market than Patek but regardless of which model one selects, whether $2,000 or $200,000, JLC provides an excellent product that the new owner can be sure JLC is proud to have released; without the need to apply to purchase that timepiece!!!

Long time no talk, my friend!

Hope you and your MC Memo are well!

I'm always happy to read your passionate words.

Best,

Nicolas

JLC is among the most diverse haute horology/top tier brands and, IMHO, this is both a blessing and a burden.  It is a blessing because JLC has a broad range of lessor expensive watches that generate tremendous revenue for the company -- revenue that JLC can use for R&D for their superlative, cutting edge watches.  This additional revenue also helps JLC to get closer to an economy of scale -- fixed costs are spread out, thus lowering the expenses for their entire range of watches.  However, to some, the concurrent production of lessor expensive lines diminishes the overall perception of the brand as a whole.  I obviously am not in this category.  I firmly believe JLC is a top tier brand and its haute pieces are equal in quality to any other brand out there.  However, if you apply an "average" of sorts, JLC's "average" piece is plainly not on a par with Lange's average piece.  Thus, IMHO, JLC's diversity is ultimately what causes some to perceive the brand differently that other brands that are more focused on haute pieces.

 

Craig  

And I would have to say that if I was at the helm of JLC, I may not have played my cards to much differently. 

...my JLC reverso automatique is by far the most accurate, with maybe the odd 'one second' deviation in daily rate (if at all)!

To me that speaks volumes on the quality of a JLC movement - it was also one of my least expensive purchases.

My other watches consist of:

A. Lange & Sohne (grande Lange 1); Blancpain chrono; Blancpain 50 fathoms; Panerai 277; Panerai 273; Rolex datejust.

They all perform well (especially the Lange) but lack the steady consistency of my humble JLC.

In terms of finishing etc i would definatley place in the top tier - the dial is simply exquisite (IMO.)

I don't own a PP or an AP simply because i've not found a model that appeals to me in way the JLC reverso does.

 Many thanks. 

just want to react further to a particular port of the initial post:

-----
Even more so, it should also help to perhaps better posiiton JLC as a manufacture that should be known more for it’s movement research, design and expertise?  After all, the Cal 101 as we have seen is followed by the interesting movement of the Duometre and Tryptique (and probably quite a few other pioneering calibers in between) both of which I think should be held at least in above average movement manufacturing regard no?
-----


I guess that nearly 2/3rd of the production of JLC, in number of watches, was (may be until recently) the reverso range. It could still be the same as the range dramatically expended with the squadra line. I would guess also that most of the clients for these watches buy an iconic design, that is easy to wear both for formal occasion and relaxed week ends. I think that few of these customers have the detailed interests that regular contributors on dedicated forums may have. these customers will surely be pleased and reassured ( if need be) when learning a word or two abut the manufactrue, the 1000h control or the attention to detail in the manufacturing process of the watch.

the higher end pieces, are a differnet ball game. These are purchased by people who know about the engine and are really interested in "opening the bonnet" if you see what I mean. for these people, the budget is usually comfortable, and therefore the choice is quite wide between the different brands. Why do they chose manufacture X or manufacture Y, is probably the result of the complicated equation of design-complication-rarity-perceived value for money-brand image.
For the last point of this equation, the brand image, this is something that takes years to build, especially when the differenciators for your products are very often technical (if not very technical).Not everybody is technical, not everyone wants to talk or hear the salesman talk technique. there is a good chance that the act of purchase is much more based on the current brand image and the evolution of this image through time.

I feel that the image of JLC is getting stronger everyday, their distribution network is growing with dedicated boutiques around the world, and in the competition arena, their drive of creativity brings them in the leading pack. If their stream of creativity for incredibly unique record-breaking complication is sustainable for long enough, then surely they will be regarded as part of the top 3 if not better.

You certainly know it, JLC provided a lot of movements for an impressive number of manufactures, even for  the most prestigious!

That may be the most important, to me.

JLC has an important History on Diversity, too.

From the most complicated watch(es ) of the world to the simpliest, they do ALL.

Yes, this may be disturbing for some to see that JLC covers quite all what Horology is able to produce, but this is in the D.N.A of the brand.

May we have to blame JLC for that?

I will also have to say that if you have a closer loo to the  lesse expensive watches, lie the MUT or the Reverso Classique, and if you pay some attention to the calibers of these watches ( Cal 846 for the Reverso, and Cal 849 for the MUT), for instance, you will certainly be happy to see that JLC makes very honest, appealing and quite well finished movements...

Even for the less expensive watches.

May we have to blame JLC for that?

Now, do you think that most of the " bling guys " will go on these watches?

I don't think so...As the Reverso or the MUT are too discrete for that.

May we have to blame JLC for that?

Now, if you want a complicated watch, and if you want to see a superior level of finish, you will be albe to find some marvels, like the Duo Metre ( I received several PMs telling me that it was so " affordable " that it was suspect ( !!!!!!! )   ), the 70eme, the Gyro I, II , the Hybris, and so on...

To me, these last watches don't have to get any complex from watches produced by PP, Lange, AP , VC and so on.

I agree that the more affordable JLC may be better finished, but if you consider their tag price, is it possible to do better?

The wide offer, the diversity may drive some to consider that JLC is not  enough " chic " for them.

Personally, when I go on a JLC, I also buy a watch from a Company which doesn't cheat.

And I'm always happy with my purchase.

Nothing is perfect in this world, and it is always possible to do better, but I'm certain that JLC knows it.

So, if the snobs don't want to go ona JLC because it is too popular, or because the offer is too wide, no problem for me.

I love the watch for what it is, not for what it represents.

Best,

Nicolas

 

 

 

Just came back from a break?

I agree with what you have said.  Like I said, I just wonder why, despite all that has come out of JLC past and present consistently, JLC has gotten some stick and not more recognition of its contributions instead.

Just came back form a magnificient wee end in family, and my connection time was a bit limited...

But I had time to think about an answer!

Best, my friend, and thanks a lot for a very interesting thread!

Nicolas

No message body

I particularly like your example of the cal 849 of the MUT.  It is an extraordinary movement, perhaps the best ultrathin movement available for many years from ANY brand, JLC's response to one of the "big" horological challenges, and yet it is presented in a relatively affordable and elegant watch. 

respo    

This captures my thoughts too - very well put!

The extraordinary imagination and passion that JLC has, and captures into its watches (and clocks!) is what has me always say that the brand I most "get" is JLC.

I can't imagine another manufacturer producing something like the Atmos clocks.  Oh, and since I like alarms, it's another score for JLC

well said Nicolas

I do not think one should add anything else

Cheers

I would like to add this:

I read somewhere that in every watch you will find a little JLC inside.
JLC has provided parts, technology and knowhow to many companies. for example the famous double date by Lange was developed by JLC.

True, JLC may not have the finish of Lange or PP but it does not have the price tag either.
Some ADs (of other companies) have told me that JLC produces a lot of watches and are not able to sell them.
As I have no direct access to the companies records, I am not certain if it is true or not- however JLC does not seem to be in any trouble.
Surely they produce more watches than Lange and GO but less than Rolex.

I am also extremely satisfied with all the Jeagers that I bought (sole exception being the Squadra and only because it did not fit my wrist correctly) and if you compare their price tag with other companies..... you cannot go wrong eg the tourbillon.

I would place JLC in the top five watch companies

Cheers