Jaeger-LeCoultre

It takes time, my friend, as every solid journey you consider...

But the reward is as huge as the efforts. You know that, you experienced it yourself.

As for your questions, yes, the owner can decide to get the unsold pieces, or to put them in a further auction.

But the most interesting thing is to try to read between the lines, with these results.

Best, my good friend.

We missed you.

Nicolas.

-- Thank you for these so kind sentiments,
Truly I missed you all and all that else.

BUT, there always can and will be a next time, hopefully ..

Best, my friend in return, also for your weekend !
hs

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- BUT, as always : how good to know ! )
Difficult wait, anyway ..

Paris.. Lights.. Friends.. Armagnac.. and else...

Best again,
hs

PS:
- pls see my PM

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So, if I understand you well, you feel that this auction was positive for the JLC image. Obviously,  a highlight on the rich history of the Manufacture thanks such event is never a bad thing. But don't you think that the number of timepieces was too large (maybe not a problem) and the selection too, let's say, heterogeneous?

Fx

On the first post I made on this auction, I said that I was surprised by the fact that there were too many pieces, of unequal quality, to say the least.

I even predicted that there will be many unsold watches, which is the case, and which is not positive. ( 246 unsold pieces out of 565 ).

The other negative thing is that Modern JLCs didn't do well, and it is an euphemism.

The positive aspects of this auction is that the Icons did superb results: The Reverso, the Polaris, the Deep Sea Alarm, the Atmos, and that some stars are born: The SHOM, which is now a familiar piece for our JLC fans, and the Blue Memo.

A deception, or better said, several deceptions: The Memo E 855 brown Dial, the Mystery, and the Master Mariner Chronometre which deseved much better.

More generally, I think that when you prepare an unique auction, you need to be more severe on the selection, and you have to do a big effort on the education ( you have to explain why some pieces are really important, which was not always the case ).

For example, the Master Mariner Chronometre is as rare as it is interesting: The american brother of the Geophysic, not less, with a more basic movement, though, but historically, very important, and to say all, it was the first time I saw it in the flesh, rather than on an ad.

We can always say that those who attended were not expert enough, it is the easy way to explain the outcome...

I prefer to say that with a bit more efforts, people would have got a better education and comprehension on how these watches are desirable and interesting.

Was it possible with 565 pieces? I don't think so, so it was mandatory to do a severe selection, and to exclude some pieces which are already chosen.

Why were 3 ( !!! ) E 855 Black dial included in this auction?

Why, on these 3, one had a badly repainted dial, and one was not in the best shape?

Why did we see a repainted Geophysic in SS, or another SS Geophysic with a poor dial?

Why a few fakes had the right to be included?

Food for thought.

Best,

Nicolas.

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I'm not a vintage expert, at all, but I had an "intelectual" interest in looking closely to the event.

I must say that I've been somtimes surprised by the results. Anyway, I answered myself that there should be a specific reason I didn't know at that time : I discover with your overview that some were right.

Concerning the modern watches I quite agree with your approach and that I don't always understand the new trend of the brand.

With an exception, why was the Perpetual 8 days 1833 sold for "only" 38 T€ ? I would have bid if I had the budget (that's what everyone says at least once in each auction ^^).

Anyway, thanks for the return and have a good week-end

Mark

I think there is a lot of food for thought, in the Vintage and the Moderns.

Yes, we always think " hey I should have bid on it " once the auction is over... But the truth of gthe moment is the only truth.

If you didn't fight, you must have had somùe excellent intuitive reasons.

Best, Mark.

Nicolas.

Very interesting outcome – a lot of mixed feelings…

On one hand I am very happy for JLC making such fantastic outcome on (some of) the vintage pieces.

On the other hand – this indicates that it will be even more expensive in the future to hunt these beauties…

A personal note; I do wish JLC to become the highly collectable brand their watches qualify to be.

But I would like it to take another 10 or 20 years so I can pick up all the watches I so dearly long for – before this happens!

 

Some went for much more than I would expect some for less.

But I guess condition of the watch might have a part in this.

I have to agree with Clavi that the price should including the buyer’s premium.

Which shows the actual amount people are willing to pay for these watches.

My thinking is that the auction house should have put more energy in to write more and proper info on the pieces instead of so many lots.

Size down at least 30% and focused on info on the lesser known pieces.

The well-known/rare pieces – buyers will always be there.

The lesser known/more common pieces, collectors tend to seek them elsewhere to avoid the buyer’s premium.

Just my 2 cents…

 

Best, my friend

Blomman

I doubt every Deep Sea Alarm, Polaris and Reverso will make such a score each time we see one for sale.

But this auction clearly showed that Vintage JLCs in general receive some good appreciation, some more than others, but it is the same for every brand.

The exciting thing is there are also some pieces which are highly desirable, and which didn't receive a strong recognition. Good thing for us, who hunt them.

There is still a  lot of work to do, a lot to write, to a lot of informations to get and to give.

Best, my friend.

Nicolas.

As a vintage collector I think this sort of debate is crucial. It's important to share our thoughts about what we feel is happening in
the vintage watch world. Most of the vintage auctions from the large houses focus 60-80% and above on Patek and Rolex leaving us
to have to dig that much harder for information on other brands.

In their own way Rolex and Patek seem to me to have an advantage for their collectors, there is a liquid market in them that allows the
collector to establish a fair current price on a particular watch. Of course some watches will always be "auction watches", however
very often in other brands where the rarity or the information is less known it is harder to get a feel for what might be a fair price.

While we buy for love, we want that love to be fair!

Of course while we talk of buyers commission, we must not forget sellers commission. The Sellers of these watches will have got 20/25% less
than the hammer price.

As a non JLC collector I look at the prices reached for the Icons and I wonder if others feel there is a continuing trend that's been growing over the past few years as vintage collecting begins to change and mature.

Within each brand, it seems to me, that the most iconic watches soar above the price of the main output of a brand. I think there are still large groups of dedicated brand collectors, but there are also more collectors who wish to own the most interesting examples of certain watches across all brands and build a collection not connected by a single brand theme but by the features or style of the watch.

So if you collect chronometers then there are many brands with their own rarities. The same for divers, pilots, chronographs, dress watches...

In terms of the Polaris and the Deep Sea, I wonder if the recent re-issues have pushed these prices up. The prices reached in Omegamania and the Heuer sale at Bonhams were often very atypical and we've seen over the years they have not necessarily affected the current asking price of a watch.

I'm sure that everyone who collects off the beaten path of vintage watches feels the same, we uncover history and care for the brands we love and
it's a natural response to want to share that information.

Watches or prices? We should not confuse the prices of with the value of watches.

And which criteria have to be met to make a price a "fair" one?

On the question about reflexivity you raised: It would be only natural if there was a feedback loop between the discussions on these and other fora and the collectors' interest in discussed models. It also seems likely to me that this interest is more focused on the iconic pieces than others.

But the question that remains is: what brings a watch to an iconic status or into the focus of the collecting crowd. Is it just enthusiasts or is it the manufacturers too. Take the DSA: it is more than likely that interest in the reedition of the DSA was raised by discussions about the real one in these and other fora. Has anybody questioned why these discussions happened? And why at a time when the reedition was more or less imminent? I myself doubt that the DSA was an iconic JLC watch before it's reedition. Could it be that the interest in this watch was solely generated by marketing means? Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles in the world of consumerism, isn't it.

Christian

Since the original Deep Sea Alarm has been a topic here in the forum for years…

Best

Blomman

Do a forum search!

Mentioning of the DSA before Nicolas' reviews of the Polaris, JLC Divers and the DSA in 2008: one handful.

Mentioning of the DSA after Nicolas' reviews of the Polaris, JLC Divers and the DSA in 2008: several hundreds.

Any further questions?

I doubt that here has been real interest in the DSA or that it has even been know to more than the inner circle of collectors before the reviews.

 

Christian

"We should not confuse the prices of with the value of watches."

Can you tell me, in your opinion, what the difference between the value of a vintage watch is and it's price?

"And which criteria have to be met to make a price a "fair" one?"

What criteria do you think should be used in establishing the price of a vintage watch?

... not to answer a question by a question.

As you will have noticed from my post I do not advocate a neo-classical position.

However it is your turn to substantiate and explain your position first. ;-)

Christian

answer a question with a question )

In terms of your line about Value and Price, I was of course wrong. That is a statement not a question.

The question about the criteria for "fair" price implied, to me at least,, that you had criteria that you considered relevant and that were perhaps different to those stated by others.

I would genuinely like to hear you expand and explain those two sentences and try and understand what you mean by them.

I have discussed some of my opinions on this in another thread.

home.watchprosite.com

At the end of the day if we collect, we have to buy watches and if we collect rare watches that don't often come up for sale we must decide what we feel is a "fair" price to pay. I am not in a position to pay any price asked of me for something no matter how much I love it.

It reads to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that your opinion is that the prices achieved for the DSA and the Polaris are a result of them being hyped into an iconic position they do not deserve.

My counter-argument, leaving aside whether the prices fetched at this auction were a result of auction fever or not, was that there is an ongoing trend in vintage watch collecting which is pushing up the price of each brands iconic output, certainly not confined to JLC, and that the price reached reflects the changing desires of vintage collectors and the recognition of value in these pieces.

These watches, as I think I explained, also have more value because they appeal to more than one set of collector, in this case the JLC collector, the dive watch collector, the "tool" watch collector and perhaps a few others.

I do not believe any amount of writing or publicity or re-issues can make a watch iconic unless that watch deserves to be iconic. We are not so shallow as that.

Sometimes I feel that a re-issue can actually reduce the value of the vintage watch, as it loses it's uniqueness to some collectors (just a feeling, nothing more).

From my personal experience I would not have been able to even start collecting if it wasn't for the internet, the forum discussions and the great articles so many people spent time and effort on researching and posting. I am indebted to them.

Many forums help people discern the fake from the real, advise on quality and price, and selflessly advise collectors who maybe have no other community to turn to for advice than the online ones.

I could go on and on with this discussion - and I am very happy to.