Jaeger-LeCoultre

We will certainly come back to the results of this auction, but I cannot resist to share with you my first impressions.

- First of all, I think we can say that it was a crazy night. A lot of people was attending the second session ( I couldn't be there for the afternoon session, sadly ), physically and through internet and the the phone, which generated some serious fights on some models.

- On 565 pieces, approximatively 220 were not sold, which was predictable.

- The Vintage went better than the moderns... We'll have to think about it and to try to explain why.

- The icons of the Manufacture reached some extraordinary levels. We can even say that some of them were awarded by world records!

- A lot of pieces went under the estimate,under the reserve price or just at the lower estimate.

It is logical when the pieces are in so so condition, it is a deception when they are in good condition and / or when they had a serious interest, which may be explained, in this last case, by the fact that the estimates were way too high, for them.

For those who didn't reach the reserve price, what will happen? You will have the answer at the end of this post...

BUT the prices weren't ridiculous, for the Vintage.

- We can say that we attended the birth of some stars, which reached some strong prices, even if they are not very well known, which leads me to think that more and more people has interest on Vintage JLC watches, and show some undisputable wisdom.

- The Heritage Gallery was here, and bidded on many pieces, but the fight was hard, and they didn't get all the watches, pocket watches and clocks they bidded on, by far.

Please note that ALL the prices I give are WITHOUT the buyer's premium, which means that you have to add 23 to 25 %!

I- The Vintage:

The brown chocolate dial of the E 855 ( Lot 411 ) I showed you ended at 2200 Euros ( estilmate: 3 / 5000 ).

The black E 855 ( Lot 387 ) went for 4 000 Euros ( estimate: 5 / 8000 ) when we saw that it could go much higher in perfect condition.

Why did the other black Memovox with its repainted dial do better, I can't tell you, this is a mystery to me...

The Memo Word Time Beau Brummel ( lot 397 ) has gone in a very nice house for 2500 Euros which corresponds to the low estimate.



The 2 Memovox Parkings went for 1800 ( lot 375 ) and 1400 Euros ( lot 378 ) when their estimate was 1500 / 2500.



Despite its small size ( 30 mm ) the Dolphin ( lot 337 ) has " done " a very nice 2200 Euros but the condition of this watch was excellent.

Same observation for the lot 339, which made an excellent price: 3200 Euros ( twice the upper estimate! ), even with its wrong hands. Jaeger Diving watch from the Seventies.



Honorable, also, the two Master Mariner Deep Sea ( 3400 Euros each ).

As we are on the Diving watches from JLC, the true stars were, without doubt, the Polaris and the Deep Sea Alarms.

Not yet the Polaris II, which went under the estimate ( 2700 Euros for the lot 335, 3200 Euros for the Red version, lot 336 ).

But the Polaris '65 ( lot 334 ) reached an excellent 20 000 Euros, beaten, which is a surprise, by the Polaris '68, much less rare, which made 23 000 Europs ( lot 338 ). The difference of condition, maybe?



The absolute winner is the Deep Sea Alarm Europe, which was sold for ... 38 000 Euros. A World Première, despite its condition. BUT a true rarity! ( Lot 330 ), while its sister, the american went for ... 33 000 Euros, which is just excellent ( lot 331 ).

The Chronographs made some excellent scores, even if lower than the estimate.

Lot 319: 12 000 Euros ( 12 / 15 000 ).

Lot 322: 12 000 Euros ( 13 / 18 000 ).

And one, a very nice 36 mm medical in stainless steel ( lot 321 ) did 6 000 Euros ( 5 / 8000 ).

The Chronometers knew som different fortunes.

The Cal 906 ( lot 363 and 364 ) went much above the estimate ( 3 / 5000 Euros ) with a hammer which fell at 2 000 and 1900 Euros.



Not bad for a not so known watch, though...

The deception was the lot 365, the very rare and interesting Master Mariner Chronometer, which did only 3600 Euros, while the reserve was at 4 000 Euros.

I still hope it will find a great home...



The condition of the dial, or the too optimistic estimate?

While the Geophysic with its poor dial went above the estimate with a hammer falling at 8500 Euros, the bidders fought hard on the yellow gold and rose gold versions, which ended at 20 000 Euros ( lot 366 ) and ... 31 000 Euros ( lot 369 ).



When the quality of the piece is at the rendez vous, there is no bad surprise with the outcome, indeed.

Congratulations to the Heritage Gallery for the Rose Gold Geophysic!

Another mystery is that the Geophysic Lot 367 went for 14 500 Euros.... With a repainted dial. Lucky seller.

The Geomatic didn't know the same success, but the condition was not here...Except the Tonneau which was auctionned at 5000 Euros ( low estimate, lot 372 ).

The Reversos went very well.

Better, they made some world record.

The Blue ( lot 71 ) is the new Champion, with a hammer price of ... 38 000 Euros.



While the other Blue ( lot 432 ) did a superb 32 000 Euros, the Chocolate ( lot 431 ) : 20 500 Euros, and the Red ( lot 430 ) 23 000 Euros.

A confirmation of their iconic status, without doubt...

Some stars were born, yesterday night...

Here, I would give a special mention to the SHOMs:

The SHOM Nr 13 ( lot 359 ) estimated at 10 / 15 000 Euros, went for... 12 000 Euros!



While the Marine Nationale did 15 000 Euros ( lot 360 ) :



The Military watches had some success, especially the Mark VII ( lot 348 ) hammered at 4000 Euros, and the Weems ( lot 354 ) which has gone for 6000 Euros!



While the 2 pocket watches went far from the lower estimate, at 600 Euros each... ( Lot 346 / 347 ).

2 marvels met a big success, I would even say phenomenal:

The lot 463, which is a platinum ultra thin pocket watch, Cal 145, went higher than the estimate, hammered at 20 000 Euros.

And a superb Perpetual Calendar Staybrite, lot 503, which has gone for ... 70 000 Euros.

Another iconic time piece from the Manufacture met a great success, the Atmos.

Especially the first ones, form the Thirties, as you can see wth the follwoing lots:

Lot 509: 18 000 Euros ( the one which was re edited last year )



Lot 510: 11 000 Euros.

Lot 511: 19 000 Euros.

Lot 517: 38 000 Euros ( World Record for this orange ambrolite Atmos! )

Lot 518: 21 000 Euros, which is one of my very favourite Art Deco Atmos:



II - The Moderns.

Here things were much more difficult....

I don't have the results from the Master Control Black dials and would be very interested to know how they did, but for the others, at the exception of the Atmos Newson ( lot 504 / 26 000 Euros! ), we cannot say that things did very well...

Most of them were under the lower estimate, sometimes in a dramatic way...

The Zep, lot 519, whose estimate was between 50 and 80 000 Euros, ended at 38 000.

The Master Grande Memovox in Rose Gold estimated between 15 000 and 20 000 Euros, was sold for 9000.

The only one which was not auctionned too low was the Grande Memovox in platinum, with a hammered price of 19 500 Euros.



An exception, the lot 530, a white gold Reverso with diamonds and lapis lazuli dial, and a Quartz movement, came for 11 000 Euros.

What to say about the MMR in Rose Gold, hammered at ... 48 000 Euros, or the Master 8 Days Perpoetual skeleton in the same metal, which ended at 29 500 Euros?

It is true that these pieces were discussed at the end of the auction, which ended late, and that after the vibrant fights on the iconic watches, it was not the best moment, but there is a lot to think about these results...

Which we will do later.

So, all in all, we can say that the results were logical: The iconic and interesting pieces went well, when in good condition.

Extremely well.

The so so pieces had the results they deserved.

With some deceptions, though, like, and I forgot it, another example, the Mystery I showed you, which is very rare and fine, or the Memovox E 855 brown scale dial, while the stainless steel blue scale dial did a superb 6500 Euros. Is it a problem of knowledge, of information about these important pieces, of communication?

Or the Master Mariner Chronometer, which should have deserved a better result, in my opinion, and which ended unsold as the reserve was not reached.

As for the Moderns, maybe it is time for JLC to think about this...

Such a nice watch as the Master Minute Repeater should have known a deeper affection if it wasn't developped in so many versions.

An exclusive watch has to be dsitributed and produced in an exclusive way...

The Tribute To Polaris and to Deep Sea Alarm are going very well, but they are one shot pieces, strictly limited.

Such nice pieces deserve some efforts in the communication, too.

There is still a lot to do, but the Grande Maison is on the good way, the recognition is here, through these results.

An evidence? One of the bidders was someone who had a very original idea: To create an investment funds company, focusing in watches.

Before, he bought Patek, Vacheron, and Rollex watches... Now, he starts to pay a serious interest in JLCs.

To be followed, of course.

Best,

Nicolas.

PS: Here you will find all the results:

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-12-01 06:26:35 This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-12-01 06:37:36 This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-12-01 06:39:11

are there PuristS around that want to share some new beauties?

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Yes, indeed, Congrats to both !
- One hopes, that several, no many - have found good new homes.

Also just as an observer from the distance,
but grateful for the reports..

All the best, Damjan
hs

No message body

for your insight to the results.

Very interesting. I salute your hard work.

Did you get your watch????

Best my friend.

Ed

Nicolas, if it is still time to edit, I think you should look at the final results published yesterday, which shouls alter your analysis as most of the watches you pointed went unsold (there were many unsold lots : 46% of total lots auctionned, a deception but we could see this coming).

Discussing prices of lots unsold seems to me irrelevant, because the price reached is achieved artificially by the auctioneer in the hope to meet the reserve.

Among the watches you commented:

eg the black E 855 ( Lot 387 ) was unsold

eg the brown chocolate dial of the E 855 ( Lot 411 ) was unsold

eg the 2 Polaris II (Lots 335 & 336) went unsold

eg the 2 chronographs which you discuss (319 and 322) went unsold

eg The Chronometer Cal 906 ( lot 363 ) was unsold

eg lot 365 chronometer was unsold

eg pocket watch lot 346 was unsold

eg The Zep, lot 519 was unsold  (showing what an un-wise choice from JLC this piece was in relation to the auction)

I also think all results should be discussed including buyer premium, as this is what ultimately people paid.

Finally, the internet bidding system was far from perfect as many interested bidders could not join and participate to the auction.

The general feeling from the room was a massive disappointment, as this auction certainly did not help to raise the profile of Jaeger LeCoultre as a collectible status, and it confirmed that the auction organisation itself was a let down.

 

 

This message has been edited by Clavi on 2011-12-01 04:56:15

Which also allows to guess that there was, maybe, a too big gap between the estimate and the value of the market...

So, what I wrote is what happened ( on the 2d session, as I was not there for the first session ( Lots 1 to 299 ).

The sheet I posted at the end of the topic is what happened, then.

Below the reserve=not sold, and this is not always because the watch was not interesting, by far.

I agree with you on one point: the selection should have been more severe, or the owners of the unsold pieces should have not attended, but it is hard to re write History.

There is a growing interest in Vintage JLCs, Clavi.

A lot of work has to be done, communication, posts, reviews, discusions, and ... Education.

But there is something which is happening, IMO.

Could you imagine, 10 years before that the Reversos, DSA and Polaris, Geophysic would reach this level?

now, it is time to work on other marvels, such as the good one you and me mentionned.

It will be their turn, one day.

Best,

Nicolas.

I think that it reveals a few things:

(1) Perhaps the auction house (or company) should have been different. Would Antiquorum or another house done a better job of pre-auction marketing to build interest and momentum? They definitely would have opened the Internet bidding and caused the piece to be more aggressively fought for, since the audience would've been bigger.

(2) I'm assuming JLC wasn't counter-bidding (as at least one famous company that JLC supplies is notorious for doing) to drive up the prices.

(3) timing, timing, timing - like "location, location, location" is always a big factor. So close to the holidays might not have been the best choice. I dunno. Time will tell.

-Dean

1/ I would be curious to see what would another auction house do, in another city, like NY or Geneva, for example. With an even more international " crowd ".

2/ As I attended the 2d part, I can only say what I saw. JLC was bidding on several pieces, won on some, lost on others. They played the game according to the pieces they need for the Heritage Gallery, nothing more, nothing less.

3/ As for the time, I can't say.

The icons are going better and better.

There were some surprises, as the SHOM. BUT in general, I do think and hope that people will be more and more educated, as Vintage JLCs cannot be summed to these iconic pieces, the past of the brand being much richer than that.

Furthermore, there is a work and reflection to do, by the manufacture, about the modrrn production.

We saw that AQ didn't sell the Duometre very well. We saw that Artcurial didn't sell very well the MMR, the Skeleton QP, and the piece unique " Zep "...

Food for thought.

Best,

Nicolas.

Excuse me please, Nicolas,

But I' m pleased to discuss that.

" The purpose of this forum was to enhance the value of someone's collection "?

Who's collection? Certainly not mine, I didn't put for sale anything from my collection, so I felt free to speak about it.

And I specially mentionned two pieces, because I could see them in the flesh, take pics of them, check the movements, their authenticity,and so on.

I discretely mentionned the Master Mariner Chronometer, and didn't put the in depht review on line, which I will do maybe this month, maybe later.

We can even say that it wasn't very clever from me, as I bidded on some of the piecs I mentionned in my earlier post.

Disappointing at a certain point, yes, because when some great pieces don't go, while some painted dials went for some " good " prices, it is always disappointing for a fan to see that.

If more people should have known that, it may have been doifferent, hence what I meant in my post.

Feel free to comment, my friend.

Best,

 

Nicolas

... between promoting the virtue of vintage watches altruistically and the self-interested enhancement of their value. This is true for anyone with enthusiasm in vintage watches, but especially for those of us who already own the watches which they promote. Sharing one's enthusiasm and knowledge about certain models will almost inevitably transfer into interest in these models and could thereby enhance their value.

This line is especially fine and difficult to walk for you as a moderator who has built up an extensive collection and vast knowledge of vintage JLCs. Discussing auction results with reference to the reasons why watches did not perform as one personally expected could raise suspicion that this forum has been abducted from its altruistic path.

Personally I do not care at all how a watch performed in an auction as I collect and wear my watches for their intrinsic value. Watches should neither be investments nor should they become external personality traits. I believe that that is what is we all should consent to.

Have a nice Advent Sunday, Nicolas.

Yours sincerely,

Christian

Like you, I'm a collector, not a seller.... And when I wrote that post, I didn't have in mind to promote my own collection to sell it in one week or in one month, even not in one year.

As we can't know what life will reserve us, I can't say I won't sell my collection in 10 or 15 years, tough, as anybody here, but not in my immediate horizon.

Therefore, I als mentionned watches I'm running after: The DSA US ( stolen, I have to get another ), the MM Mariner Chronometer, the Mystery and one of these Memos " Scale Dial ".

If I wanted to take benefit from this platform to make my own deals, I must be stupid.



Chilling is not an habit of mine, Christian, and you certainly already know that.

I wrote this series of posts only from a Vintage JLC collector and fan's point of view, nothing less, northing more.

But you are right, this has been to be cleared....

Best, and thanks for having shared your interrogations.

Nicolas.

I have known Nicolas for a long time, and I can say that he is far from what you are here trying to imply.  In fact many times, he and I post to inform lightly of what could be a sore experience for many buyers.  If you do not understand this and if you have no enough experience about someone, please refrain from alleging or expressing yourself negatively about someone, near thinking you can bath in the same pot.

... reread my post thoroughly. I did not allege or express myself negatively about someone. I was just giving voice to my puzzlement about Nicolas' post in the context of recent auction results.

To me, you are venting imaginary suspicions. Of course anything can be manipulated.

Nicolas has near 50,000 posts, I believe none of which are in the Collectors Market, that to me is an unquestionable display of an incorruptible passionate enthusiams and generosity, doesn't it?

If reading between the lines, what could be vented about this :

you wrote: 'and could somebody please provide me with the address of the guy who was willing to pay about 20k € for a black faced E855.'

When you earlier wrote: 'Personally I do not care at all how a watch performed in an auction as I collect and wear my watches for their intrinsic value. Watches should neither be investments nor should they become external personality traits. I believe that that is what is we all should consent to.'

... was a joke referring to recent auction results - seemingly a quite obvious one!

Yours weirdly,

Christian

No message body

mmmm, the tone this conversation is taking leaves me puzzled.

I think a legitimate question has been raised, and it has been answered in a very appropriate way by the person concerned.

The rest of the thread could have been avoided I think, I don't see any ground for such an unpleasant drift

No message body

I checked the auction house for the sold prices earlier today and noted that the 2 versions of  the  vintage Deep Sea Alarm sold at prices nearly twice that of the vintage Polaris. Is it because the Deep Sea Alarm production is far less than the Polaris ? 

Very close to the '68 Polaris...

This cannot be the explanation.

Best,

Nicolas.

The fact that the auction went well for the vintage JLC does not surprise me at all.

I think there is a lot of work to do on other Vintage pieces which are rare and beautiful.

The Date Disc, the Mystery, the MM Chronometer, and many others should have known a better end, certainly.

Let's speak about these watches! That is what I will do in a close future.

Best,

Nicolas.

 

Jaeger-LeCoultre has always been an important actor in the industry horology.  It is recent (10 years) that JLC is adapting to its exposure as an important watch manufacturer and it climbs as near as possible to the top brands podium.  Its past and the value of his pieces were not a discussion, most people would purchase a JLC watch based on horology connaissances, need or sentimental values.

 

In today’s world things have changes, people purchase ‘stuff’ and want assurance that there aren’t spending money on item that turns out to be price-less.

JLC continuously innovates and releases watches that only dreams could create, but their current and vintage watches are fighting to find proper and probably deserved estimations against other brands that have long been established in terms of their fixed, set and known values.

 

In the last 10 years we all saw some (most) JLC vintage watches jumping from coins to bills, the progresses are huge, not yet to the deserve values, but in 10 years a enormous progression. 

The Grande Maison is not like most of the reputable valuable brands. JLC never involved itself in getting its pieces value-established. 

JLC is more a purist minded maison than anything else. 

Of course JLC is learning and know the importance of the patrimony it houses, as well as the importance it represents to its followers, but it takes time to change, changes that I hope will happen sooner or later, because today for most it is value that grants recognition.

 

It is sore for some to see the results of this last auction, we would all have preferred it differently, but what counts more is that we for sure know that it was not interfered.  319 lots sold and 246 lots unsold, that is not bad considering the amount and the quality of the lots offered.  Lucky for those who could get what they wanted which could have turned up differently if the auction had been broadcasted worldwide.  Unlucky are those who did not sale their ‘trendy stuff’ or did not manage to recoup on their recent investments.  Still the last auction makes JLC progress and its value is getting closer to eventually find its deserved marks.

 

What I see with JLC watches, is that many discoveries and explorations are yet to see the light of day, and this thanks to the likes of our PP JLC Moderator we will not be kept in the dark.

For JLC to get the recognition they deserve...

Well put, POY.

Best,

Nicolas.

Hi Nicolas,

In general, successful bidded price plus 25% buyer's premium, the watches are not cheap, considering some of the "so-so" condition pieces.  So, JLC has done quite well.

I am not surprised at all that the vintage pieces had out performed the modern pieces.  Relatively and in general, vintage pieces are cheaper compared to the prices of the current pieces (of course, with some exception of Patek pieces, for right or wrong reason).  Further, I believe when you buy vintage pieces, you also buy its history, nostalgia and rarity (ultimate limited edition).

To me, I only take the auction result as a guide, never seriously because there is always a likehood of untold stories and invisible hands behind its corporate veil.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Regards

Ling 

But it's been a while since Vintage JLC are doing well, at the auctions.

You're right, a lot of things can happen at an auction.

Two weeks ago, we saw a black E 855 going for 20 000 CHF. Who would have guessed that???

It was because there was a fight between two hard core fans.

But the black Memo has become a sought after watch, for sure, despite the fact that 20 000 CHF can't be considered as its true value, which is more coherent with what we saw in Paris.

The Vintage Reverso reached that " status of recognition " for several months, now, and we'll have to follow the DSAs and Polaris, and I hope many other Vintage JLCs.

As well as the clocks, and Atmos, which are growing stars.

There is a world outside Vintage Pateks and Rolexes!

Best, and thanks for your input.

Nicolas.

.. a BIG, indeed very big Thank you for this report, update, education, AND pleasure, you again provided to us, Nico !
( Thanks to Clavi , as well, in am appropriate way !)

I first had to read and re-read it, digest some of it, think about it - and well, relate to it, the outcome - and the pieces, somehow.

1/ Some personal words may be allowed:
Have to confess, I am quite inexperienced, as far as watch auctions go, so I am prone to learn and listen, specifically at this
period of an otherwise personally hilarious year of Vintage pieces, I had the pleasure to see, touch and - well, luckily for some, to acquire,
- several significant ones, aided and emphasized so kindly by friendly help and also advice.

Even more, on this occasion, I am grateful for that - reading your reports,and several comments of wisdom here,
it is a pleasure and little torture at the same time,
as many times, when you ask yourself: "What, if.." or "Well. why didn't I start with this experience, maybe this time ?".

- Maybe, on a personal notion, one cannot have too much too quickly .. : "Start solid .. Go slow.. Learn to accept a NO (?)"
- BUT follow your heart !!

Finally: Personal and market "value" may often be quite different perceptions. - I guess, Marketing does play a role for the latter, as mentioned here.
- I am feeling happy for the lucky new owners, some of whom I am honest enough to express my envy ..

2/ Padawan's thoughts to the results:
- Apart from the "high-flyers" and ICONS - The SHOM results (absolutely beautiful, IMO) were my personal real surprise on one end ,
and that I did not pay more attention, (maybe even bidding somehow ?) to the very reasonable result (condition?) for the Memovox Parking;
The MMV Beau Brummel looked very nice, BTW, of course, as well.
The Military Pieces, I deducted, were in convincing conditions ( Hmm, the Weems.. and the Mark VII A)
- the Master Mariner Chronometre not selling, a little mystery to me, as you mentioned - that fate would be something interesting to follow, really.

- Several of the ICONS were stunning, ( the European DSA something special !!) , the ATMOS examples quite breathtaking for me .

On the other hand, still so much more to learn, much more to understand.. And I am starting to do so, "peu a peu.."

Quite sadly, I could not travel to Paris during these days, neither for looking at the pre-auction displays nor for attending,
(although several lots seemed reachable for me) - but above and foremost of all, I missed some friendly faces
and for sure some great experience, it appears.
- Also maybe it was good as well, more time for maturation ..

HOWEVER, I trust, there will be other times to again travel to Paris, one of my preferred Cities,
on such or similar occasions !

3/ Look back and LOOKOUT:
And when I start to look back,now in the first days of the last month of the year, WHAT a year !
- But when one sees all those pieces pictured, listed, ( some of them whispering" "Why not me ?" ), one has to stay calm and focused,
and that is what I continue to try, not always easy.
- Also, meanwhile I think to have a clearer idea what to pursue next, and indeed, there are some nice promises, luckily..

It IS also nice ( but "double-edged " for the collector ?) to see, how people appreciate the JLC pedigree, more and more..

Not only the "..soul is a wide field" , but also the pleasures and encounters we may find, as variable they may be..

Your reports, comments, including reflections and great pics contribute to that,
Thank you again, my friend and appreciated "Monsieur le Moderateur",
also for all your efforts to our enlightenment - brighter they make these dark days of winter for many of us !

My very personal best,
hs

PS:
Naive little Q:
- what happens to the pieces not sold at this time's auction - going back to their owners ?
- resold on other occasions/ points of sale ?