Blancpain

When collecting the Fifty Fathoms, your way will necessarily cross the Tornek Rayville.



It is unavoidable, at least in your desires, in your dreams.

You begin with the easier Fifty Fathoms to get, the " No Rad ".

Then you are on the hunt for a Mil Spec.

If you're in love enough with these very strong watches, you will try to find an original 1953 FF, or / and a LIP Blancpain.

Then, one will always miss..The Tornek Rayville.



Is it so necessary to get one?

No, of course.

But it is better with than without.

In the world of Miltary Watches, there were several Blancpain Fifty Fathoms watches:

The LIP Blancpain, the " No Radiations " , the Mil Spec I, the US NAVY, some " AM " and the Tornek Rayville, which maybe be called Mil Spec II, by several armies, like the French ( due to the fact that the French Officers Riffaud and Maloubier were the initiators of the project, and in a certain way, the fathers of the Fifty Fathoms ), the US Navy, The Israelians, the Germans, the Norvegians, the Danish, The Polish and some few others...

As the Fifty Fathoms was one of the very first Diving Watches, this watch is interesting and a true object of Passion for every Collector of Diving watches.

And the Tornek Rayville is certainly one of the most interesting.

Every Legend requires a part of Mystery, and with the Tornek Rayville, it is the case.

First of all, because it was on the point to not exist, as Bulova should have taken its place, with a very close aesthetic, but for some reasons, it failed and, at the end of 1964, the Tornek Rayville was born.

Here a pic found on the net of the Bulova ( Credit Pic: Camfam. Thanks for your kind authorization! ):



Here an interesting picture, taken by our fellow Ryan, which shows together a Mil Spec Military, a TR 900, and the famous Bulova:



Then, because most of the 1000 TR produced between 64 and 65 were destroyed by the US Navy, at the end of their service, and a few of them has survived, for the greatest joy of the Collectors.

So, if we compare the number of Tornek Rayville ever produced to the number of all the Fifty Fathoms released from 1953 till 1980 ( 7 or 8 000 pieces per year during 28 Years, according to Stefan CIEJKA ), we can say that it was and still is a very rare bird.

Let's see this watch in detail, now.



The first thing which comes to mind while looking at the Tornek Rayville is the very close look with the Milspec.

The 2 watches are very close, indeed.

Here, the Civilian Version, with the drilled lugs:



It is even closer to the Military Milspec, with the non drilled lugs:



In both cases, we have the moisture indicator, the microbillé case, round and rectangular indexes, the same small crown, well, to make it short, quite the same general layout.

But, if you pay some attention to both of them, you will notice some differences.

1/ The dial, first:



As you can see, the round indexes are a bit smaller on the Tornek, and the rectangular are a bit shorter, too.

The Losange at 12 on the Milspec is a Triangle on the Tornek, and you will notice that all the round indexes almost touch the 5 minutes indexes on this last one, while on the Milspec the round indexes are clearly separated.





Here, the impressive Moisture indicator:



When the blue part doesn't come pink, all is correct and the watch is still waterproof.

As soon as the blue part turns to pink, you'd better check the water resistance of your watch...

On the Tornek, the writing is different, too, on its dial.

There is no mention about Blancpain.



The Tornek dial looks larger than on the Milspec.

And you have another detail, which is quite important, if you look at the down part of the dial:

On the Milspec, the Luminous material is T < 25 mc, while on the Tornek, it is written PM 147 ( PM for Promethium ), wich has a very short luminous life ( 2.5 years, instead of the average 15 years for the Tritium ).

Here, a pic with the Military Milspec.



No big difference compared with the Civilian Milspec:



2/ Now, let's have a look at the bezel and the case.

Like on the Milspec, the case has a microbillé finish, which gives to the watch a slightly dark, matt and very nice look.







The lugs are shorter on the Tornek ( 19mm ) than on the Milspec ( 20 mm ).

Here are some comparative pics of the Miitary Milspec and the Tornek ( the Tornek is under )





The bezel is thicker, but narrower, too, on the Tornek Rayville, and bears the triangle at 12 instead of the losange, even if I saw some Milspec bezels coming with the triangle...( In this case, the triangle is also at 12, on the Mil Spec dial )

On the following pic, the Milspec ( Civilan version ) is under the Tornek:



Here, with the Military Milpsec:



A detail which jumps to the eyes, is that the plexy is less domed on the Tornek.

Is it to enhance the legibility, due to the fact that a flatter plexy presents less distorsion?

3/ The Case Back:

Looking at the case back is a bit like reading the Military Specifications of this watch:





- " If Found, return to nearest military facility ".

- " Danger Radioactive material 2mc PM 147 ", and the radioactivity symbol..

- The month and year of release: " 11/ 64 ".

- " Non Magnetic "

- The rec license reference.

- The famous Milspec reference: MIL - W - 22176.

- The not less famous Trident symbol.

- And the individual number of the watch.

You will notice that the screwed case back is in 2 parts: A kind of ring, and the case back in itself, which gives access to the soft iron anti magnetic dust cover:



The bars are always fixed, on the Tornek.

4/ The movement:

On the Tornek, the movement is a well known one, the AS 1361, but at the difference with the Milspec, the complete code is 1361 N.

Here is the TR 900 movement:



And now, let's have a look on the Milspec movement:

Civilian:



Military:



As you can see, there are some noticeable differences.

Some parts seem to be made in brass or copper, certainly to reinforce the resistance to magnetic fields ( if someone has better or more complete informations about this detail, it will be my pleasure to read them ).

Here are some macros of the TR 900 to enhance these differences:









A real tractor, conceived to work in the worst conditions, with a minimum of finish, but not ugly at all...

These details seem to be specific to the Tornek Rayville, as another enhancement, the hacking second, which was required by the Army. ( Credit Pic: Billy Schorr ) :



For the anecdote, Mr Tornek bought American jewels to use them on the movement, because of Taxes, but changed them for better quality Swiss Jewels.

5/ General thoughts:

Each Fifty Fathoms has something special, something hard to describe in words, a kind of blend of strength and sensuality, in the same time.

I took several pics of this Beauty, to try to give it Justice, while thinking at the Military Subs, we all have in mind Panerai, Rolex, Omega, and so on...Forgetting a bit that these Blancpain were real toolwatches!

Look at this pic I took from Billy Schorr:



Isn't it a tempting Duo?

A tool, certainly, but a very nice one:

Here, on a Milspec ad:



In ..." Action ":



Austere?

Don't think so.

The slightly domed plexy added to the moisture indicator, to the satined black dial and to the nicely patined indexes gives a lot of depth, warmth to this watch, contrasting in a very impressive way with the grey matt microbillé case.





While the Milspec I ( is the Tornek to be considered as a Milspec II ? ) is more looking like a brutal watch with its large and thin bezel, and its smaller dial and a bit more centered indexes, the Tornek is more ..Elegant, better balanced in its proportions, which is clearly noticeable on 3 dimension pics:





The diameter of the case, which is a bit more than 41mm, its moderated thickness, the sensual matt curves jump to the eyes.

The only reserve I still have is relative to the size of the crown.

I like a lot its shape, but I find strange that for a Diving watch, and a Military one, you have such a small sized crown, even if it is evident that no one will use the crown when diving.

When you have to wind the watch, it is not a pleasant excercize.

But, on another side, this small crown is perfectly integrated to the case.



Compared to the Big Crown of the Civilian Milspec:



Aesthetics against Utility and Functionnality?

That is the only small bad point, to me, about this watch which obviously has a lot of presence, character and charm:

.



On the wrist?



A great moment!

Try it, and you will certainly adopt it.

CONCLUSION:

If we had to think about Legendary Military Diving Watches, I'd say that the Dream List would be a Panerai 3646, a Rolex 5517 or 6538, and a Tornek Rayville.

Among all the fifty Fathoms, it is certainly, at least to me, the nicest, with the " 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 " Dials.

An important and Legendary watch to consider, indeed.



Best,

Nicolas

PS: I would like to specially thank Stefan Ciejka, Billy Schorr, JC ( you know who you are ) and Dr Strong for all the informations I found here and there which helped me a lot to better know this watch, and to love it.

Wonderful post, I love the look of those old watches.

Thanks for your nice comment, my friend.

Best,

Nicolas

you worked hard on this post my friend....

Much appreciated.....

Cheers

Before deciding to get one...

I was very niterested by its Story, did my homework, and gathered informations here and there, adding my personal observations on this watch.

That's all!

Best, my friend.

Nicolas

Hard work for those wonderful watches
THANKS!

Pascal

These Vintage FFs are very attractive!

It is very difficult to not fall under their charm.

Best,

Nicolas

That's fine, it's still a pleasure to see it in pictures and to read your reports.
Maybe later this year I'll be able to post about a FF as well

Best,
Pascal

TOP article TOP pictures TOP review !!!
Perfection on the higest level !!!

best regards

Claude

Very pleased than a fan like you appreciated it!

Nothing new to share???

Best,

Nicolas

It will contain a surprise for you, I will post it in the upcoming days. If all turns well I can finish it tonight so I only need to take some pictures tomorrow and can post it here afterwards! ;-)

best regards

Claude

What can it be???



Come on!

Best,

Nicolas

...is certainly a strong and attractive watch.  Your article does a great job of pointing out the differences, and the similarities between it and the Milspec.  I do think the Milspec may present more elegantly overall, due to the smaller/thinner indices, flowing script stating "Fifty Fathoms," slender lugs, and lozenge-shaped marker at 12 o'clock.  The entire presentation of the Milspec is one of a toolwatch that does double duty as a casual civilian timepiece for its owner. 

Both would be lovely additions to any collection, particularly if one is a dive watch fan.

Cheers,

Daos

The TR 900, of course, for the Story behind, for its maxi dial, to use a Rolex Terminology, and for the bezel, thicker.

The Milspec, for its elegance, and because it was the first.

It is funny that you say that, because I know some passionate collectors who, like you, prefer the Milpsec to the TR 900, while I'm unable to say which of these 2 I prefer...

If you're a good girl, I will show you something before the end of this month which may please you a lot...And which is a superb compromise between the TR 900 and the Milspec I.

Stay tuned.

Best,

Nicolas 666

After all, mother says that only bad girls have tattoos.  I must be a lost cause if that's the case.  I am, however, very intrigued by your message.  What could it be?  Another FF?  Something different?  Another Polaris?  IWC 812?  I would DIE if you found a clean, original 812.  I love that watch.  Rolex 6538 (Or do you have one already?) -- the dream Sub for every Bond maniac like me.  My head is spinning.  I go to bed dreaming of dive watches.

Daos

But I already posted it, just before this post about the TR 900.

But, I also got something else, yesterday...

Something I was running after for a long time...



By the way, there are, from time to time, some Ref 812 spotting here and there, but they are really pricey.

As for the Rolex Sub, I recently added a 5508 in my collection, and who knows, if luck is on my side, maybe one day I'll be able to put my hands on a nice 6538...

Best, Bad Girl, and have nice dreams!



Nicolas

i dont even want to ask how and where you get or dig up all the old information or ads my compliments to you as alot of time and effort must go there then also you have to have the sickness    which nicolas you certainly have

but seriously i like the TR and Milspec  both i like the hands on mil better and the bezel on the TR better but both are neat, but i think it would look better on my wrisyt   

Thanks for a great review and pics that show all details

And I don't want to " steal " their Job...

I specially think about Billy Schorr, who dedicated a lot of his time on the TR 900, to not only collect all the available informations, but also the watches, and who made a lot of searches.

When doing my own homework, and speaking with some big collectors, I was amazed by the power and the love this watch inspires.

Love, History and Passion, that seems to give a perfect definition of this watch.

Best, and thanks for the nice words, my friend.

Nicolas

I liked the comparison with Milspecs I, in its civilian and military version.

It is clear that both watches share a similar aesthetic, adapting the TR-900 to the MilSpec I (in production when the latter Tornek saw the light). Its design, due to Mr. Tornek, who worked at Blancpain Firm, was based on the MilSpec I, making it clear that both share the same pattern.

As you say, military specification which was the basis for the Tornek is "U.S. "Mil-W-22176 (SHIPS) / WATCH, WRIST, SUBMERSIBLE (400-FOOT), NON-MAGNETIC", using in this case the PM-147 in place of Promethium 145, shorter-lived than the latter but less radioactive.

I add some extracts of the Tornek´s military specifications ...

The usual configuration...


A FF Milspec Militar with the same configuration....




As you say, the Tornek could be considered as a MilSpec II. However, another important point to add to Tornek´s design, in my opinion, is clearly the Bulova proto, watch that was destined to be the watch of the American Army at this time.

In a U.S. Navy manual we read:

"(12) A wristwatch, pressure-resistant, non-magnetic, and will incorporate certain desirable features not present in the current watch, is in development. The watch will probably be available for service tests in 1958)."

Totall appears with certainty that the new watch that was developing was the Bulova MIL-SHIPS-W-2181 (The precursor of the Tornek-Rayville TR-900 / MIL-W-22176A).

Unfortunately, the Bulova failed the test:

Three prototypes of the submersible watch BULOVA BuShips workmanship under contract and in accordance with MIL-Ships-W-2181 were evaluated. Water resistance, readability in the darkness and several subjective tests were conducted. The tests were carried out deep to 392 feet (175 psi) pressure, and stayed for an hour. The watch face includes a moisture indicator which changes color if it .... Two of the three moisture gauges, one during the test and another several days after the tests. Did not show traces of water or moisture in the boxes. The legibility of the watch in the dark or under water was satisfactory, except the second hand, too thin to be seen ... Several physical improvements are recommended as a result of subjective evaluation .... Not recommended acceptance of the watches because they break the seal...

The similarity of the Bulova and the Tornek is surprising, although we could also say that the design is strikingly similar to the Bulova...

I daresay that the Tornek Rayville is a watch that eventually incorporating aspects of both worlds: the Bulova (model under review by the U.S. Navy) and the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms MilSpec I.

But and important question came to my mind always that I think about the Tr-900 and the Bulova.... which watch took the similarities from which... The Bulova was based in the Milspec?? Evidently, some similar aspects are easily recongnicible in the Bulova from the in production Milspec; The Tornek was based in the Milspec and in the Bulova, taking the best in both worlds??.

I think, IMO, that we can consider that the father of both watches is the Milspec I.

In any case, the Milspec and the TR-900, have really nice points that can make select one or another. I love the crown in the Milspec (I don´t understand the small crown in the TR wich made quasi impossible opperate it), I love more the second hand on the Milspecs, the superdomed plexy in the Milspec is awesome (as an UFO), but the TR-900 become in a cult watch for it´s rarity and for it´s militar soul. The Milspec is more brutal, and the TR is more elegant (wich could be different, because certanlly the TR is a militar one and the MilspecI is "more civil".

The best of all, would be have both watches and enjoy the two worlds at the same time.

A hit, a myth, a watch that must be in any diver´s collector.

In my case, I think that the pity is that probably I´ll never be able to own one... but no problem, I can admire yours time by time....

Thanks for the pics, for the great work made, for your learning to us, which is the most important thing... and thanks to all that have spent some time making the learning of all of us (Stephan, Jeff, Bill, JC, and you, my dear Nico).

Best, hermano.

 

Emilio

Who inspired who?

This is only my guess, because I don't have any documented evidence to demonstrate my point of view, BUT:

The Milspec is a variation of an earlier FF:

 

The FF was released since 1953. The Bulova proto, AFAIK, was released at the end of the Fifties, so, later. The Military Specifications inpsired the design of both of these watches, BUT, when the FF has to adapt itself to the Milspecs, the Bulova had to start from nothing. So, to me, if the Bulova Proto and the TR 900 are so aesthetically close, this is because of the Military Specifications, and certainly not because the Bulova inspired the TR 900. The mother of the TR 900 is certainly this early FF, and the Milpsec one is just a TR 900 big sister, to me. As for the Military Milspec you show with the Compass, I think I know this watch in the flesh. This is another great watch, with a part of Mystery. To me, I think it is a TR 900 proto, as it shares the same case than the TR 900. It is a kind of cousin of the one I recently bought, an " AM " watch. But I will come back to this watch later... Best, Hermano, and thanks for your detailed answer! Nicolas

I´m thinking about it for a long time.

Your theory is simply credible.

If we reach the dates, we can see that the first FF were made in the earliest ´50 (1953 to be more precise). Between 1953 and 1960 the Ff knew more variations, and in those variations there were lots of Lip Blancpains (some models with 3-6-9-12 dials and the same bezels than in the Milspec I). The MilspecsI were made in 1960 and some writings said that the Bulova proto were available for testing probably in 1958-1959. The TR-900 was made in 1964.

The most pausible theory is that, indeed, some similarities between the Bulova and the TR are due to the Military Specs (don´t forget that the TR resolved some "problems" of legitibility that appeared in the Bulova) and both were made to "answer the questions" for the US Navy.

1958-1959....1960.... and 1964....

Is evident that the earliest FF were made as a superb diving watch. The Mil Specs from the US Navy were simply (legibility, waterproof, rotating bezel, and so)... the earliest Ff gave it.

The moisture indicator didn´t appear in any Ff since 1960, with the Milspec, like in the Bulova (one year before, aprox).

So, IMo, the question is simply.... an icon watch (the FF) adopted the Military Specs from the US Navy (like the Bulova), added an moisture indicator (like the Bulova), the Bulova made an "identical" bezel like the one in some FF (don´t forget that the Rolex, for example, weared a totally different bezel), and the Blancpain FF resolved some problems that appeared in the Bulova´s protos (1960). Four years later, an Icon watch born... the TR-900.

Between the born of the Milspecs (1960) and the born of the TR-900 (1964) four years passed. It´s evident that the TR were made before 1964, tested by Us Navy, and saw the light some years later.

Probably, the Mother of all of them is a earliest FF... the Bulova, the Milspec and the TR are great and nice daughters of it.

The Milspec and the TR-900 are sisters... the Bulova is its "cousin".

Interesting, intriging and.... beautiful.

One more question, hermano.... in the net I´ve read that the FF equiped some armies.... and the Spanish army too... do you have some informations about it??.

Interesting and constructive post, hermano, muchas gracias!

Emilio

How can we be sure that the Milspec was released in 1960 and not a bit before, like 1958 or 59...?

Was the Milpspec the first and the only one to use the moisture indicator?

Certainly not the only one, but the first?

NB: I don't know who to credit nor to thank for this brilliant pic.

As for the Spanish Army, I didn't know, Emilio, but I remember a story of a French Guy who found a TR 900 in Spain.

While all the others were thinking about buying the watch,; this French Guy bought the plane tickets, and landed in Madrid to pick the watch.

But I think you know the guy in question...



Best,

Nicolas

This message has been edited by amanico on 2010-01-06 22:37:16

when I said:

The moisture indicator didn´t appear in any Ff since 1960, with the Milspec, like in the Bulova (one year before, aprox).

Here are some proofs...

*LIP Blancpain, 1954-1956, 34mm, AS 1361.



LIP Blancpain, 1954-1956, militar model of the CIEPM, 35mm, AS 1361,





The caseback...





AS 1361...



And the one in your post is another (or best) example.

So, definitely, Blancpain used moisture indicators in its models before the end of ´50s.

Probably the first in use this moistures???. I think so and, sure, before than the Bulova.

And, for your words... I know the guy who planed to Madrid???. This guy made what he must made! ))

Best, hermano.

Of course the CIEPM from the mid fifties is a, if not THE most famous example of the pre existence of moisture indicators on Blancpain watches.

Agree on the man who take the plane and the watch...



Best, Hermano.

Nicolas

Hello my friend

 

That is probably the best, the most impressive post I have seen on the forum. Great work.

Especially the Autopsy aka the inside (the calibre mhhhmm yummie), and the details. WUNDERFUL indeed

So far I dont know anything (OK, a little) about the B FF, but now I know more and a lot about the Tornek Rayville. Seems like the "real toolwatch"

If i am not wrong, is this also a birthday watch?! Good stuff! 

 

A question came to my mind (as not knowing a lot on the FF)

-Seems like the watch was specified from MR Abraham/Allen Tornek for his Tornay Watch Co. But who was Mr Rayville?

 

Best to you

Hans

 

This message has been edited by hans_jorgen_1968 on 2010-01-06 03:50:49

Cannot stop reading your post .....

These words, coming from you, are much appreciated, my friend.

Best,

Nicolas

According to Jeff Kingston, in his superb article ( Lettres du Brassus Nr 3 ), " Rayville was a name used by J.J FIECHTER for some of the Blancpain production."

Well, I own this one for almost one year, now, but I wanted to take my time to make a review on such a great watch.

I hope that this will contribute to make you more curious about these fantastic Vintage FFs, my friend.

There's a lot to learn, and to discover about them!

Best,

Nicolas

... you have already made me search the www (intensively in my lunchbreak that is)

Lets see if I one day have a FF

Best

Hans