Comments:
vintage GP gyromatic - some help
Hello,
my name is Mark (Germany) and I am collecting watches for quite a while. Well, yesterday I received my first GP (yes, it is an ebay one!) ? it is a man?s wristwatch, clockwork shows number 423788, 39 jewels gyromatic, case (between lugs) 9073 AF. Silver painted dial shows GP logo, the name Girard Perregaux and Gyromatic (over 6). Indices are exposed, the watch has date and stainless steel case (app. 34 mm dia). Pressed back shows ?waterproof?. Watch has one failure: I cannot wind up the watch with the crown, it is inhibited if wind up clockwise. Automatic function is good, accuracy too. Because I am not familiar with watch engineering and repairs, I would like to know the following: has anyone an idea, when this model was produced, what kind of works it has and is there a recommendation for a good, experienced watchmaker in Germany (region M?nster/Osnabr?ck). Thank you very much for your help!
my name is Mark (Germany) and I am collecting watches for quite a while. Well, yesterday I received my first GP (yes, it is an ebay one!) ? it is a man?s wristwatch, clockwork shows number 423788, 39 jewels gyromatic, case (between lugs) 9073 AF. Silver painted dial shows GP logo, the name Girard Perregaux and Gyromatic (over 6). Indices are exposed, the watch has date and stainless steel case (app. 34 mm dia). Pressed back shows ?waterproof?. Watch has one failure: I cannot wind up the watch with the crown, it is inhibited if wind up clockwise. Automatic function is good, accuracy too. Because I am not familiar with watch engineering and repairs, I would like to know the following: has anyone an idea, when this model was produced, what kind of works it has and is there a recommendation for a good, experienced watchmaker in Germany (region M?nster/Osnabr?ck). Thank you very much for your help!
Some data
Hi Mark,
first of all: Congrats, you?ve got a nice one.
Calibre 42.3 was introduced in about 1966 as the third gyromatic movement by GP. Measurements are 11 1/2 lines (25.6mm) width, 5.2mm heigth and equipped with a patented micro-metric adjustment device. Beat rate should be 21.600 A/h (halfbeats).
It should look like this one:
Based on the movement production period and the reference number (9073 AF) i would put this one into 1967/68. Maybe a little later, GP like other makers sometimes encased movements of earlier production.
Somewhat unusual is the dial; almost any original GP of that period had the "39 Jewel" marking on the dial if sporting one of those movements.
Now onto the problems:
If turning is impossible, it?s time for a service. Maybe it will turn out to be a minor fix (replacing the stem), maybe a wheel is damaged. Do not use force to turn the crown, it?s definetely a job for a watchmaker. Good news: Usually spare parts for these movements should be available, so there is a good chance it can be repaired.
Germany?s retail and customer service is located in D?sseldorf:
H.T. Time Handels GmbH
Heinrich-Heine-Allee 4
40213 D?sseldorf
Tel: 0049 211 866 100
Fax: 0049 211 866 1099
e-mail: info@ht-time.de
According to GP they will service vintage timepieces (or send them over to La-Chaux-de-Fond, depending on the necessary work).
Located in M?nster is another GP retail shop. They do have a repair facility. Please email me for details.
Finally, i would love to see some pictures. Especially of the movement, a good picture of a calibre 42.3 is still a "black hole" in my movement picture list.
Greetings from germany,
Peter
first of all: Congrats, you?ve got a nice one.
Calibre 42.3 was introduced in about 1966 as the third gyromatic movement by GP. Measurements are 11 1/2 lines (25.6mm) width, 5.2mm heigth and equipped with a patented micro-metric adjustment device. Beat rate should be 21.600 A/h (halfbeats).
It should look like this one:
Based on the movement production period and the reference number (9073 AF) i would put this one into 1967/68. Maybe a little later, GP like other makers sometimes encased movements of earlier production.
Somewhat unusual is the dial; almost any original GP of that period had the "39 Jewel" marking on the dial if sporting one of those movements.
Now onto the problems:
If turning is impossible, it?s time for a service. Maybe it will turn out to be a minor fix (replacing the stem), maybe a wheel is damaged. Do not use force to turn the crown, it?s definetely a job for a watchmaker. Good news: Usually spare parts for these movements should be available, so there is a good chance it can be repaired.
Germany?s retail and customer service is located in D?sseldorf:
H.T. Time Handels GmbH
Heinrich-Heine-Allee 4
40213 D?sseldorf
Tel: 0049 211 866 100
Fax: 0049 211 866 1099
e-mail: info@ht-time.de
According to GP they will service vintage timepieces (or send them over to La-Chaux-de-Fond, depending on the necessary work).
Located in M?nster is another GP retail shop. They do have a repair facility. Please email me for details.
Finally, i would love to see some pictures. Especially of the movement, a good picture of a calibre 42.3 is still a "black hole" in my movement picture list.
Greetings from germany,
Peter
is that the AS base?
Hi Peter,
As usual, you are a fount of wonderful information on GP's!
If that movement is based on the AS ebauche, I think the problem might be wear in the reverser gears. I worked on a Zodiac with that movement (the Zodiac 70-72) that had a badly worn reverser gear that would flop sidewise and prevent handwinding. The automatic winding functioned as normal though.
Regardless, Peter is absolutely right that it needs some attention. Diagnosing over the internet can be an entertaining diversio, but is seldom particularly useful or likely to be acurate.
_john
As usual, you are a fount of wonderful information on GP's!
If that movement is based on the AS ebauche, I think the problem might be wear in the reverser gears. I worked on a Zodiac with that movement (the Zodiac 70-72) that had a badly worn reverser gear that would flop sidewise and prevent handwinding. The automatic winding functioned as normal though.
Regardless, Peter is absolutely right that it needs some attention. Diagnosing over the internet can be an entertaining diversio, but is seldom particularly useful or likely to be acurate.
_john
thanks, but no idea!
Hi John,
thanks for your kind help. I?ve no idea, whether it is an AS-base or not.
Maybe Peter is able to clarfy?
Yours
Mark
thanks for your kind help. I?ve no idea, whether it is an AS-base or not.
Maybe Peter is able to clarfy?
Yours
Mark
Hmm. Let?s speak BIG pictures for themselves....
Hi John,
i was in hope you would join in as i?m lacking the technical knowledge to verify possible errors in a movement (even those i have in my hands).
Regarding the base/ebauche some general words:
In 1956 the first gyromatic movements were based on hand wound ebauches by Peseux while GP added an automatic winding systems including the automatic bridge.
Please excuse my lacking photo skills, but i hope this calibre 21.19 explosion drawing (taken from a 1957-59 service manual) will explain it:
It was in use as GP 20.09 without automatic bridge:
The gyromatic function is explained in a 1957 booklet:
Later ones (since 1961, calibre 31 and up) used ebauches by AS which were added a new automatic drive (with gyrotrones), a different regulation and a different escapement (at least high beat ones).
Here we have a (stripped down) calibre 32 movement; you?ll see the different base plate. This movement was designed as an automatic one:
These are likely the Zodiac 72 (and Favre-Leuba 1149/1152); the rotor is (apart from a different engraving) very similiar and the base plate seems to be almost identical.
The last one is a chronometer rated fast beat (High Frequency) calibre 42 of 1970:
Visually improvements from cal. 32 to cal. 42 are minor. The first high beat cal. 32 were suffering from a rather short power reserve of around 32-27 hours. This was improved later and beat rate increased from 31.600 to 36.000 A/h.
Greetings from germany,
Peter
this smiley thing is nice!
i was in hope you would join in as i?m lacking the technical knowledge to verify possible errors in a movement (even those i have in my hands).
Regarding the base/ebauche some general words:
In 1956 the first gyromatic movements were based on hand wound ebauches by Peseux while GP added an automatic winding systems including the automatic bridge.
Please excuse my lacking photo skills, but i hope this calibre 21.19 explosion drawing (taken from a 1957-59 service manual) will explain it:
It was in use as GP 20.09 without automatic bridge:
The gyromatic function is explained in a 1957 booklet:
Later ones (since 1961, calibre 31 and up) used ebauches by AS which were added a new automatic drive (with gyrotrones), a different regulation and a different escapement (at least high beat ones).
Here we have a (stripped down) calibre 32 movement; you?ll see the different base plate. This movement was designed as an automatic one:
These are likely the Zodiac 72 (and Favre-Leuba 1149/1152); the rotor is (apart from a different engraving) very similiar and the base plate seems to be almost identical.
The last one is a chronometer rated fast beat (High Frequency) calibre 42 of 1970:
Visually improvements from cal. 32 to cal. 42 are minor. The first high beat cal. 32 were suffering from a rather short power reserve of around 32-27 hours. This was improved later and beat rate increased from 31.600 to 36.000 A/h.
Greetings from germany,
Peter
this smiley thing is nice!
Peter, you did it again...
Thanks for your contribution and education.
This is a real eye opener for me!
Keep it up Peter, your contribution to this
forum is sincerely appreciated!
Jaw
This is a real eye opener for me!
Keep it up Peter, your contribution to this
forum is sincerely appreciated!
Jaw
thanks Peter!
Hi Peter,
I've been doing a little more research on these movements and came across references to Communaut?e Horlog?re de Pr?cision (CHP). Apparently CHP took the AS ebauche and supplied finished movements to Girard Perregaux, Doxa, Favre Leuba, Eberhard and Zodiac.
GP replaced the standard AS click wheels with their patented Gyrotrones and made the other upgrades you mentioned as well. It's also possible Zodiac's version was proprietary in some way as it is often referred to (possibly incorrectly) as a proprietary calibre (in Bestfit for example).
Thanks for the beautiful blow-up of the GP 21! I had no idea it was not an automatic movement by design. Digging through these old movement numbers and development takes a bit of detective work doesn't it? Thanks for so generously sharing your insights and information.
_john
I've been doing a little more research on these movements and came across references to Communaut?e Horlog?re de Pr?cision (CHP). Apparently CHP took the AS ebauche and supplied finished movements to Girard Perregaux, Doxa, Favre Leuba, Eberhard and Zodiac.
GP replaced the standard AS click wheels with their patented Gyrotrones and made the other upgrades you mentioned as well. It's also possible Zodiac's version was proprietary in some way as it is often referred to (possibly incorrectly) as a proprietary calibre (in Bestfit for example).
Thanks for the beautiful blow-up of the GP 21! I had no idea it was not an automatic movement by design. Digging through these old movement numbers and development takes a bit of detective work doesn't it? Thanks for so generously sharing your insights and information.
_john
It?s always my pleasure
to be here and share our passion for GP.
Hampel?s book "Automatic wristwatches" mention CHP, but does not refer which AS base movement was used. According to germany?s Flume sheets (equivalent to Bestfit) several parts as the balance pivot are not interchangeable between Zodiac and GP movements.
The fast beat calibre 32A (click) as well as the micro-metric fine adjustment are patented for GP in late 1965. A bit strange, as inventors are mentioned Mr. Rene B?rki (La-Chaux-De-Fond) and Mr. Francis Jaquet (Le Locle). As to my knowledge GP never had facilities in Le Locle, but had the escapement made by FAR (Fabriques d'Assortiments Reunies) in Le Locle.
It seems to be a long tradition in the swiss industry to outsource production of parts or partial movements. Like today SOPROD S.A. and Jaquet (http://www.jaquet.ch).
Still many things to unravel (which is fun anyway).
And my best thanks to ThomasM for his generosity to run this great forum as well as JAW for his efforts.
This is a great place!
Greetings from germany,
Peter
Hampel?s book "Automatic wristwatches" mention CHP, but does not refer which AS base movement was used. According to germany?s Flume sheets (equivalent to Bestfit) several parts as the balance pivot are not interchangeable between Zodiac and GP movements.
The fast beat calibre 32A (click) as well as the micro-metric fine adjustment are patented for GP in late 1965. A bit strange, as inventors are mentioned Mr. Rene B?rki (La-Chaux-De-Fond) and Mr. Francis Jaquet (Le Locle). As to my knowledge GP never had facilities in Le Locle, but had the escapement made by FAR (Fabriques d'Assortiments Reunies) in Le Locle.
It seems to be a long tradition in the swiss industry to outsource production of parts or partial movements. Like today SOPROD S.A. and Jaquet (http://www.jaquet.ch).
Still many things to unravel (which is fun anyway).
And my best thanks to ThomasM for his generosity to run this great forum as well as JAW for his efforts.
This is a great place!
Greetings from germany,
Peter
thank you so much Peter
Hey.
I just want to know. what are the advantages of having a high frequency automatic watch? what are the differences essentially between 28,800 and 36,000?
Thank you.
Saludos
Alberto
I just want to know. what are the advantages of having a high frequency automatic watch? what are the differences essentially between 28,800 and 36,000?
Thank you.
Saludos
Alberto
There was an excellent discussion on this topic on WatchRap a few months ago...
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=169624&messageid=1045631896
Click the above address link to see a general discussion on the topic. Be sure to come back here and discuss the topic if you have any further questions or want to discuss it specifically in the context of GP.
(Peter) At some point, we will be archiving and indexing the more involved and informative threads that have developed over the years.
Regards,
TM
Click the above address link to see a general discussion on the topic. Be sure to come back here and discuss the topic if you have any further questions or want to discuss it specifically in the context of GP.
(Peter) At some point, we will be archiving and indexing the more involved and informative threads that have developed over the years.
Regards,
TM
Thank you very much, Peter!
Hi Peter,
and thank you very much for your prompt and detailled answer. I recognize that it is a real pleasure to make use of this forum!!!
I will prepare some photographs to put into the forum.
I agree that the dial could be non-original because of the missing "39J" logo. Seller spoke about a "re-dial". Using a magnifying glass and examining the dial I find out that everything seems to be original, well, each detail is perfect, as if the watch has just left the factory! It shines brillant, a smooth "mother-of-pearl" brilliance, by no means repainted! Sorry for my words, but I love the watch from the very beginning
See you and thanks again, GP-lovers!
Mark
p.s.
Does anyone have any source (internet), where to find out detailled model-history of GP?
and thank you very much for your prompt and detailled answer. I recognize that it is a real pleasure to make use of this forum!!!
I will prepare some photographs to put into the forum.
I agree that the dial could be non-original because of the missing "39J" logo. Seller spoke about a "re-dial". Using a magnifying glass and examining the dial I find out that everything seems to be original, well, each detail is perfect, as if the watch has just left the factory! It shines brillant, a smooth "mother-of-pearl" brilliance, by no means repainted! Sorry for my words, but I love the watch from the very beginning
See you and thanks again, GP-lovers!
Mark
p.s.
Does anyone have any source (internet), where to find out detailled model-history of GP?
Mark - Perhaps you can help ?
Hello Mark - I have an identical problem - can you remember what the watch repairers said was the fault,or faulty components and how much,or how it was eventually repaired ?
Thanks
Alex
Thanks
Alex