Omega

Hello all,

Firstly apologies to anyone who follows other Omega forums as you may well have seen my wittering on about this watch on them, but someone on the Timezone forum suggested that I post here to reach a different collection of Omega enthusiasts so here I am!

To cut a long story short, this watch was rescued from the trash can while my grandfather was having a clear out and the more I learn about it, the more intriguing it is!  Here are some pictures of it:







I'd not seen another watch like it in quite a lot of Internet searching and also looking in printed media so I paid for an extract from Omega archives which confirmed that the numbers matched and that it was made in August 1941, originally supplied to Portugal.

Here's the extract from the archives:



Basically I'm interested in any info that anybody could add to the above, it's a really beautiful timepiece, and I intend to hold onto it, at least for the time being.  I've been offered some very interesting sums of money for the watch, ranging from £500 to £2K - has anyone got any idea on the true potential replacement cost?  I'm intrigued as to how much it might be worth but am more worried about getting it insured correctly.

All the best, and Happy 2010 to all!

Simon R.
This message has been edited by simonr on 2011-01-02 15:28:49

. . . is another man's treasure"?

You found treasure ;-) . . .

As for replacement cost, I'll leave it to the more experienced Omega collectors to venture their opinions by private message; while it's perfectly alright to ask for opinions, any discussion of price or value regarding a specific watch should be held in private.

Thanks for sharing this story and photos, Simon . . . cordially, Art
This message has been edited by Dr No on 2011-01-02 19:27:32

Hi Simonr

That is the first time I have seen a Pre-Rg chronometer  that was not a sweep second model.

The few that I have come across were is 35 mm steel screwback with 30T2SC movements...

here is my  extract , from 2001 from John at Bienne...

"    Dear Bill,

    have found the following through the archives ...

*    OMEGA - GENTS WRIST WATCH
*    mvt N°  9'245'334
*    case N° 10'087'502
*    manual winding movement of caliber 30 SC T2 - with special
adjustment for chronometer testing  16 jewels (... and this is way your dial
does not say " chronometer "  ! although the watch is a chronometer ! )
*    watch reference : CK 2254 - round stainless steel case - 35 mm
diameter
*    manufactured August 27, 1941
*    delivery country=not registered

    hope this does the trick !

    have a nice day

    John
"

As you can see my watch is very close in s/n and with in a few weeks of your example.

Your case ref of 2192 I  have not seen before...  From the pics you posted it looks to be a snapback case , right ?   Also will you please post pics of the back of the case and a straight on shot of the dial side so we can better see the shape of the case.  From the angle of the photo the case has the same style as the 2254 but sans the screwback case.

My dial is black with luminous numbers and hands... But the traditional dial for this ref is the same as your but a sweep seconds version.





If you look closely at the movement  some of the components have a higher level of finish when comparing to a standard 30 mm movement.   I did notice that your watch does not show the same level of finish.  Something to note and think about.







Here is dealer display piece...  showing the 2254 case ref...




Remember that these Pre-Rg  30 mm movements came out prior to 1943...  Why?  well that is when Omega released the 30T2SCRg and the 30T2Rg chronometer .


It is an uncommon watch you have.....  how much someone would pay would have to be answered via Pm to you directly.


Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

Hi Bill,

Cheers for that reply - that's a really nice watch that you have, I've seen a couple of military watches with the dark dial.  I was interested to see that although the production date on yours is later than mine and so is the case number, for some reason my movement is some 20,000 later than yours.

I wonder if movements for a watch like yours were taken off the production line for further work before being fitted to cases.

Either way I'm rapidly learning that Omega Chronometres are part of a long and interesting company history!!

All the best,

Simon R.

Hi Simon,

Hi Bill and all the others who are interested in 30 mm Omega chronometers.

This is an interesting find...  And there is no doubt about the authenticity as it is well documented by Omega. 

As we knew already for the EARLY 30 mm chronometers (in simple watch cases which were also used for the non chronometer version):

ref. 2254 with "SCREW on" back,    CENTER second

ref. 2244 with "PRESS on" back,     CENTER second

we see here: 

Ref. 2192  with "PRESS on" back,  SUB second

I think we should be prepared for a "missing" Ref. XXXX  with SUB second  SCREW back to appear...

I am curious how long we have to wait...

And who knows?

Perhaps there is also a missing Ref. XXXX   for the screw back 2410  with SUB second... ??

Never say never when talking about vintage Omegas...

just my thoughts

Erich

This message has been edited by mac_omega on 2011-01-03 05:59:27

.. between the 2192 and the 2244 might be.

Hard to imagine the factory would take the effort to reduce the casing by ~1mm just because the subsec. version is a fraction thinner than the SC movement?

During WWII Omega exported a large part of it's production via Portugal - wondering if this was the final country of destination... if only grandfather was alive, maybe he could have some recollections about the watch' story.

Anyway, most interesting - curious to see better photo's!

Hi Ben,

yes, it is an interesting thought you have there...

There are 2  explanations which may be likely:

The Ref 2192 case could well have been the predecessor of ref 2244 and the case remained the same size, but was

equipped with a center second movement later...  and so got a new ref # to make a distinction between the 2 versions.

Or the Ref. 2192 was really somewhat more slim than the 2244 case related to the flat sub second movement.

Maybe Simon can take a precise measurement with a caliper - you and me, we both own a ref. 2244 and could take dimensions

for comparison... I am curious too!  

kind regards

Erich

Hello everyone,

It's really exciting to hear more info and postulation about the watch, it's also very interesting to hear about other similar Omegas from the 1940s.  Nobody else seems to have heard of that case reference either so I'm pleased to have brought something new to the discussion!

I've taken some more pictures as requested.  The back is snap-on as you'd guessed and the outer surface is plain, except for a 70 years' worth of marks and scratches!  There doesn't appear to be anything engraved or stamped into it anyway.

With regard to measuring the case, I'm more than happy to do so, but what dimension needs to be measured? -apologies for my ignorance! I think the guys at work have a digital caliper that I could borrow.

Thankfully my grandfather is still alive but although I've tried repeatedly to find out what he knows about the watch, he denies all knowledge.  I originally thought that it was bought as a replacement for another Omega that was a wedding present from my grandmother, but which was stolen.  However, the dates don't match up as this would have been at least 20 years after this watch was made and I don't think he'd have bought a second-hand watch for that purpose.

There is another place this watch could have come from and that's the estate of my grandmother's best friend who died back in the early 1980s.  The woman in question wore a 1953 Rolex Oyster bubble-back  as her every-day watch but I wonder if this Omega was one of hers.  I'll continue to question the family because it would be great to know how it got from Portugal to the UK.

Anyway, the entire colection of photos can be found here: click here .

Here are the ones that were requested:











Cheers for now,

Simon R.

Hi Simon,

Please take measurements of 

1) diameter of the case (without the winding crown) - best taken between  10 and 4 o´clock...

2) thickness of the case - (please try to measure the metal part only, without the crystal - is not easy...)

3) distance between the lugs (where the strap is installed)

A caliper would be very useful.

Thank you and best regards

Erich

Hi there,

Good news - I've borrowed a digital caliper from one of the engineers at work and have made the following measurements.  They're pretty reliable, except B and D because I couldn't get the jaws of the caliper in past the bevelled surface to make a perfect measurement.  They're pretty close though.

SR.

Hi Simon,

thank you very much - you have made a great job! Much appreciated...

BTW did you receive my private message?

kind regards

Erich

Hi Erich,

Glad to have been of service - have they told you anything useful?

I didn't get a PM from you, feel free to send an email instead if that's easier.  sboreeves at gmail dot com.

BFN

SR.

Hi Simon,

hi all,

thanks to Simon´s precise measurement I have been able to compare the dimensions with my ref. 2244 case and I must say - 

given some tolerances in case production around 1940 - it is virtually the same size and other proportions (tiny differences...).

So what is to conclude out of this?  

I think that Omega used the same press back case for both the references 2192 and 2244 and the different reference numbers 

were given due to the difference in the movements only.

Whereas ref 2192 has a sub sec. movement - ref 2244 has a center second movement - the rest is equal...

Here is the picture of my all original ref 2244 - has still the factory original crystal with the Omega logo in the middle...

and the side view shows the same profile and proportions - sorry for the poor picture quality - little daylight - and I had to avoid flash...

I can not prove my theory but it seems logical...

Just my thoughts

Erich

.. with a ck2244 from 1948 I arrive at the same conclusion as Erich, there is virtually no difference between the 2192 and 2244 dimensions.

Funny,  was half & half expecting the 2244 snap-on back to be slightly more bulbous (because of the SC-movement), but even that is not so.

Makes you wonder indeed if we will ever see an étanche version (screw-on back) of Simon's watch, as Erich suggested, and what it's ref.# could be. Or maybe plainly 2254? - who knows.

cheers,  Ben.

 

Hi Ben,

thank you for chiming in...  your comment is much appreciated!

So it seems as if we "cracked the nut"...

BTW your example looks very fine indeed - have you changed the dial or hands?

I do not recall exactly how it looked when you sent me a picture long ago...

Kind regards

Erich

..Erich,  always much appreciating your input.  And very nice to meet Simon's little known ref.2192 here.

 Concerning the 2244:  no, nothing was changed, although I have an attractive Rg work ready to be 'plunged' in. Still looking for a suitable 'chronomètre' dial however.  The case is in fine condition - for the present dial I' m inclined to say it has been re-done at some time. Brand name is pretty thin printing, with the O (mega) slightly larger than the following capitals. For the rest looking well, logo in relief (in silver colour as are the indices), good minute markers. Cyphers 3-6-9-12 are blackened-out (matt) and this doesn't seem to be the result of oxydation or so. Anyway it is bound to make place for something else if such a part should pop up. Winding crown (with logo) is obviously a replacement.

Perhaps interesting to report: recently I acquired a 23.4SC with a case which is virtually a 'scaled down' version of the 2244 > same stepped lugs and bezel, like a smaller but identical brother. Diameter is ~32,5mm. Ref. is unknown to me, only the case# 9'968'xxx. According to the worksnumber (9'60m.) it should date to 1942/43. On this watch I also like to replace the dial (which I don't like) and have the movement fixed. When I'm happy with it I'll show some pictures.

best regards,  Ben.

Hi Ben,

I think I know what you mean with the 23,4 SC - I had one on my radar just recently... was it on the "bay" ?

I decided not to buy it because of the small diameter, but I recognized the same case design like a small brother of 2244...

Kind regards

Erich

This message has been edited by mac_omega on 2011-01-06 11:36:41

HI Simonr

I have to scratch my head and say this has got to be the only forum on the net that would get this detailed on a vintage Omega...   You have found the right place to talk about this uncommon Pre-Rg chronometre...


So what are your plans for it going forward ?  What strap are you going to put on it ?  Will it be a daily wearer?

Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

Hi Bill,

Yeah - I don't know of another watch forum where the discussion gets this detailed.  It's kind of funny because on the first forum where I posted about the watch, the consensus was that it was just a run-of-the mill Omega and not worth bothering about, the second forum was lightyears ahead of that in terms of the knowledge that people had and this one's a step up again.

I'm thinking about what to do in the future - I'm tempted to hold onto the watch, at least until I feel like I've found out as much about it as possible.  I will then seriously consider selling it and a few people have expressed an interest - goodness only knows how I'll decide who gets it!!  I'll worry about that at the time.

Then I'll either buy a more modern, less collectable Omega as an every-day watch (to replace my relatively expensive but incredibly boring Raymond Weil dress watch) or maybe I'll add a bit to it and buy a Rolex or something.  My partner thinks that it would be a good contribution to our hose deposit fund though ;-)

SR.

"During WWII Omega exported a large part of it's production via Portugal - wondering if this was the final country of destination?"

My guess is probably not.  I've received some documentation from Omega saying that some of the "U.S. Army" watches (Ref. 2179) were delivered through Portugal.  I think the same may have been true for some of the WWW British military watches produced after 1939.

Since Switzerland and Portugal were both neutral countries during WWII is it likely that agents in Portugal arranged for final delivery to their Allied destination without alerting the German authorities nosing about.

Then again, one never knows for sure,

gatorcpa

 

do all the rg movements have the precision regulater or do the earlier ones have the normal regulater as seen in the above watches. the reason i ask is that my local auction house has a 1947 Omega described by them as a 30T2SCPG. it doesnt have 'chronometer' on the dial, but i'm guessing that they might have misread rg for pg and it could be a bit of a sleeper. its in 19kt case with a pretty good dial so might be an interesting prospect.

i can supply pic if needs be.

Graham

 Maybe they have misread (shock absorbing system) PC  for PG Graham?

If a movement picture shows the Incabloc-spring on the balance-pivot and no micro-regulator, well then you know enough: no Rg chronometer version... 

cheers,  Ben.

Hi Graham,

Yes, Ben has pointed out the facts:
PC often is mis-read as RG or PG...
The easiest way to determine is the balance cock: the chronometer movements did not have a shock absorber!

kind regards
Erich