TimeOut

until I get a chance to catch my breath.

I think Top Gear picked the Aventador as their COTY; I'm sure they won't be the last.

An amazing car...

(the M-B SLS Roadster and the Maserati GranTurismo MC Stradale are pretty damned close on its heels, though, and the Aston Martin Virage Volante not much further behind...)

Cheers,

TM

Are they supposed to look like the reactor in "Back to the Future", or is that just a happy accident?

A

um...

 

Cannot wait to see one in person.

you owe it to yourself to check out, ideally to drive, one.

As a PURE car I still like the Diablo more (is there such a thing as TOO well sorted?) but I'm sure the Aventador would kick 99.9% of any production car out there in actual quantitative measurable performance metrics.

It's so good, it actually doesn't feel as quick and fast as it is!

But when it comes to cars, I still am a bit of a purist bordering on masochism - no traction control, no electronic nannies, thank you...

...Doesn't your Gallardo (and this Aventador) have ABS, stability control, a brake differential system, 'leccy suspension adjustment; not to mention 4WD, throttle-by- wire and paddles instead of a pedal and lever?

If it weren't for the performance...how much more nanny can you get?

the DIABLO VT did have a primitive form of traction control and admittedly had power steering, grudgingly...but if you've ever driven one, you would be hard pressed to think of it in this regard in the same context of modern cars of any sort, from the most pedestrian to the "super-cars"

And no, the 1994 DIABLO VT did not have "floppy paddles" but rather proper three pedals and a stirring stick...

But yeah, let's go back to Blower Bentleys...

;-) (that's a wink and a smile, meaning TONGUE IN CHEEK)

Also, my comments pretty much reached the same conclusion as yours, no?

(My Gallardo of choice would be the Balboni edition, or the LP-550, but even those have too many "nannies..." for purist tastes...)

..Diablos.

My point was around modern supercars (worst appellation ever, but eh, that's another windmill) and for that matter, modern cars.

 At what stage do driver aids (and I count the humble brake booster as an aid) become 'nannies'?

Is it wisdom on the part of the manufacturer or a 'compromise' that the likes of ESP and ABS are provided to help stop these high powered machines clattering into the countryside? After all, vehicles with higher power-to-weight than the porky but powerful Aventador exist on tiny tyre contact patches..with no ABS and no TC...but very very few can ride them near the edge, so the almosst stray into pose-mobile territory. (yeah, mikes again, but this time the 200hp things)

So, going back to cars,  the question is:  are TC/ABS/ESP now the price of the current level of performance?

 

(as for paddles, they are 100% nanny, for people with weak left legs and a fear of stalling )

I had a short but long reply keyed in, and hit send, then find out my net access timed out and lost everything.

:-(

Something about even 500hp in a straight line without traction control...and 911's with decades of suspension and chassis development, with or without traction control...and Piaggio MP3/500's with CVT "automatic" trannies...and barndoor sized golf club heads and tennis racquets...

Suffice it to say an interesting and fascinating discussion, one which I hope we can engage in again and further, hopefully with the likes of Dr. Velociphile chiming in...

Alas, my flight calls...

Cheers, mate.

...shreds of your ideas that remain....some responses to your thought starters...

 

500hp in a straight line: Not much experience of this. Drove an RS6 (in both straight and not-so-straight lines), strangely a bit of a snore. Drove a very hot '69 Camaro (now that was exercise for your left leg) with was very toey everywhere, got worse -much worse - when it started sprinkling rain...definitely something to ponder....

911s: Suspension and chassis development...and factory-fit lead weights in the front bumper....

Piaggio MP3: I think I've previously written that these things are terrifying. They lift the inside wheel when you're pushing them - just when you don't want it...At sedate speeds, I guess they provide confidence for those worried about stability, but aren't great through tight traffic. CVT? As an owner of an Italjet Dragster, if they're modified correctly for the engine characteristics, they can be fantastic. Scooters are for city/commuter use, so CVT enhances/simplifies that.

Golf clubs/Tennis raquets.....wouldn't have a clue...I stay well away from the former and the closest I get to the latter is squash...which have regulated dimensions...

First of all we live in a " Nanny state " LOL coined by Mark Webber. Roads over policed , speed cameras etc . I agree with you about being a true purist with cars. We had a all too brief conversation at the GTG about cars which were lightweight , nimble and had good power to weight ratios with no ABS , traction control and brakes were only moderately boosted so you could modulate your braking . The joy of learning how to heel and toe, to match the revs, when down changing from 5th . to 3rd. or even 2nd. without locking the rear and spinning off. No paddle down shifts that with clever electronics would even blip to match the revs., perfectly , quicker than even a racing driver can do  with a manual change in the modern sports cars.Only some sports cars like the Lotus Elise comes to mind with that lightweight, nimble with good adequate power to weight ratio and superb handling ethos. This message has been edited by dreamer8 on 2011-12-08 23:23:35 This message has been edited by dreamer8 on 2011-12-08 23:26:29

But the market has spoken, and reliability (good), safety (good) and convenience (definite hmmmmm) have taken precedence over many of the 'joyful' aspects of cars. The tiny niches 'driver's cars' such as the Elise now occupy show how those aspects are regarded.

Take heel and toeing/double declutching, half the modern cars I've driven recently barely have the throttle response to make it worthwhile, even if the pedals were placed correctly.

Take gear changes....it used to be that the lever would go through a hole in the tunnel straight to the gearbox, if you had a decent gearbox, the shift could be direct and fluid... Modern N&V departments would have conniptions over such a noise path. And (rightly) most customers don't want to put up with a noisy cabin just so dreamer8 and BDLJ can enjoy the shift feel. Of course, the challenge is to please both parties, but I doubt the loss-curve works in our favour.

 

[as an aside, in our all-too-brief discussion of the virtues of lightness, one of the counterintuitive aspects of vehicle handling is that for all things else being equal - tyre grip/friction, CoG, roll centres, etc - a car's mass has no bearing on its maximum steady state speed in a turn; where the centripetal force=friction force at tyres.

Centripetal force=(mass.velocity^2)/radius.

Friction force=mu.mass.gravity

So resolving for velocity=sqrt(gravity.radius)....mass cancels out...which is where your comment on the foolishness of skid-pan numbers comes to light ..which gets back to the whole business of light cars being much better at transitional response, hence fun. ]

 

Throttle response not fast snappy direct manual changes because of the massive flywheels used in modern cars to dampen out vibration to the extent that that is no " zing " left when you blip LOL. We will talk more soon. 

....of how much you can take out of a car, gearshifts, lightness, etc.

 I just (literally 30 min ago) had a go in a nice red MG PA. Reverse gate gearchange, about 2inches of clutch travel, rod brakes...totally impure with it's new-fangled indicator add-ons

Look forward to talking next GTG, we've strayed a bit on this thread.

"It's so good, it actually doesn't feel as quick and fast as it is!"

Not in the same league, but a recent squirt in the current 911 Carrera made me think of the same thing. I thought the rear end was still a little more skittish than I expected from a modern Porsche. That was until I really started to think about the effortless speeds I was achieving along a very twisty piece of road; much faster than I would have been comfortable to go in a less accomplished vehicle. Subsequent drives in a C63 and M3 along the same road confirmed how far the 911 has come in 45 years.

Any product that recalibrates your (past) experience is a special thing.

Andrew

The almighty 911, and the gorgeous FPJ TS.  Drooling!

 

Vte

... phone camera to record the occasion as I handed the car back. Looking forward to driving the new 911 next year.

Andrew

is full, I have a perfect spot in mine

more pics please!

-MW

.

Is that number plate allowed in the US?

Regards

Ling

it's a "demo" plate.

This is the only car - make and model - that doesn't look stupid or kitschy in matte paint...imho of course.

Thanks for sharing it.

.

almost devilish...that bull looks spectacular!

 

But it can look slightly less sinister too, depending on the background...

 

doesn't this look almost...relaxed?

Yeah, I agree...NAW!!!!

I can imagine that.  It reminds me of the Stealth B2 Bomber that flew over Phoenin for the 2001 World Series when the Diamondbacks won the Championship.   

Tito and I often talked about what type car we would have rented to travel up Highway 1… I think this would have been the perfect ride.

Just Dreaming,

Helen

to be taken that way (lost my breath) but yeah, that too!

Cheers,

Helen.

Great car. Have fun with it.

Had a chance to take it up to some pretty decent speeds on two tracks - you could still feel the weight transfers, but the grip was always there. Brakes were reliable and pretty unexciting, the way I like it.  If anything, I thought it was too soft for the track (and finally, after some whispered conversations with others also on the track who got to push it, I found I wasn't the only one...)

Putting on about 50 miles on public roads, I can attest that it was a genuine blast...