Officine Panerai

would those models be more desirable to the Panerai collecting community?  I've heard mixed comments of the pricing and value, connection with history, etc.  But wondering what other's feelings are if Panerai did come out with a news release saying that 322 and 309 were the last models with Minerva movements? 

So, how do you feel about the 322.309 value if Panerai did make those models the only models with Minerva movment?  Does it change anything for you?

-David

added to Editor's Pick   This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2008-04-14 20:40:52

The problem is that 18K euro is a lot of money. When I see a 4 K panerai which I like a lot I don't have to think too long about it. I buy the watch. When I don't like it anymore or I want something else, I sell it and the loss will be almost nothing. So, a 4K Panerai is imo always a lot of fun. On the other hand, 18K .... You can buy 4 Panerai's for that amount or you can buy a Lange or Patek. A simple gold Calatrava is less expensive than this titanium Panerai

But when I read more about minerva and it's movements I must confess that this movement is 400 times more interesting than the unitas, while the price is 'only' 4 times more

The most sought after Panerai's today are those with the Rolex movement. Maybe one day collectors will give an arm and a leg to get such a Minerva based Panerai 309 - 322.

And another thing about the price. Compare it with the 127 ...

The 127 ( 1950 ! pce)  with a cheap movement costs about 17.000 euro today

The Panerai 309/322 (only 150 pce) with a haute horlogerie, high level movement will cost 18.000 euro

Now, tell me which is the most insane the 127 or the 309/322

 

Between Minerva and Panerai execpt maybe for some tools like the curvimeter which is equipped with a Minerva movement...
And the price, my friend, the price...
When you think that an Angelus 8 days was under this price on the catalogue price, I mean...
Add some more few bucks, and you'll have the Logo pre v grail...
Or save a lot of bucks and you'll get a Mare pre v...
Best.
nicolas

 

"When you think that an Angelus 8 days was under this price on the catalogue price, I mean...
Add some more few bucks, and you'll have the Logo pre v grail...
Or save a lot of bucks and you'll get a Mare pre v..."

 

That is exactly what I don't get.

The Angulus movment isn't any better nor more interesting  than that minerva movement so why should I say '18K is fine for an Angulus but too much for the Minerva' and what is it with those vintage watches.  Besides, a pre vendome  Panerai isn't imo vintage. It's barely 15 years 

I was talking about the insane price you have to pay for a 127 but imo the pre vendomes are crazy as hell to. take for example the 5218-203/A 1994 Luminor Marina, Don't know exactly the price for that watch but it's more than a 309/322. afiak there are 200 of those and the unitas movement isn't something special, right ?

Angelus was a true Historical movement used in the Vintage Panerai..Its interest is not horlogical, but historic.

As for the pre v, you're right, I'd say that the 203/A is around 2 times the price of a 322.

BUT, the fine point with the pre vendome pieces is that they belong to the past, and that Panerai Vendome can't re edit these watches.

These are true pieces of History too, the history of a brand that wasn't touched by marketting, in 1993.

The brand has that " courage" to launch pieces that, at this time, seemed not wearable for everybody, that were criticized by many people, as too big, and even sometimes, qualified as too ugly...LOL

Are you sure Panerai won't do any OOR of these 322 as they did for the 217/ 127?
Don't you think that Panerai didn't value their 322 knowing that people is nowadays completely crazy about a 217/127?
Don't you think that Panerai plays too much the card of the marketting against the true collectors we are, the passionate and watchnuts we are?

Another example, look at theRads with some nice horologiacla movements, like the 163, the Chezard movment etc...
Did you see the value of these watches hitting, rocketting the sky?
NO!

And as for the 322, I'd for one prefer to see the Minerva not reworked by Panerai, as in the Ferrari Bling Bling...

My 2 old French Francs, of course, my ffriend from the " Haut Quievrain"...LOL
Best.
Nicolas

This message has been edited by amanico on 2008-04-14 13:43:46

Setting aside that one movement may be superior to another movement as I am in no way qualified to make any comments or pass judgment.

Why is a Chanel leather belt $800-1000 dollars when a similar looking belt is worth $50.  They both hold up your pants.  You might say the Brand and the prestige associated with it.  And that is exactly correct.  All I am saying is there is not right or wrong.  It is our perceived value of the item and the perceived value of the masses attribute to it and this is what drives the price/value matrix.  In Panerai's case most of the economics seem to be focused on limiting supply  but this argument get shattered in some instances like the 127 example with 1950 psc.  Even the 1000 psc 217 is climbing fast.  This compared to 150psc example with higher end movements. 

If you look at the 127 and discounting the $6900 and starting with the last retail price of $9k (06) even at $25k it is a little over double and the PreV models at +/-$3k are selling at well over $30k a 10x increase.  I do not ever see the 127 reaching a 10x multiple.  So fast forward to today fewer will speculate on an Euro 18k watch doubling or tripling any time soon much taking the gamble at 18k  The 127 has some froth on it and has most likely peaked as have some of the preV model.  But factor the short supply of PreV you have a better chance of the price remaining high with very little speculators.

I'll bet if you ask Panerai what business they are in there answer would be broader than we sell watches.  They would something a kin to Xerox  who would not say we make photo copiers but "We are in the office automation industry"  or a cosmetic firm that doesn’t say they make skin creams but "We make people feel better about themselves."

So I think Panerai would have an answer closer to the cosmetics company.  The real question though is how will the maintain the perceived notion that most Panerai watches maintain there value as the supply and prices increase steadily?

After writing all this realize I have imparted very little.  Oh well.

Bill

Price is subjective and probably marketed for a niche segment. With only 150 pcs produced, 100 pieces black dial and 50 pieces tobacco dial, 48mm case I suppose, these watches may have been spoken for. They are a class of its own with the gold ring surrounding the dials. Whether there will be OORs, nobody can predict, only OP has the answers.

As Richemont have bought over Minerva and they are still making their movements, I believe, we will see more limited models or models with Minerva movements in the years to come unlike the Angelus movements. That is pure economics, imho..

In the nutshell, just enjoy the watches... 309 and 322 are the surprises by OP this year and I can`t wait to see them in the metal. But due to its small production numbers, I may not have the chance...that is what I call `Limited` ..LOL..

Cheers,

 

  

and with their need to build the product, you can never go back and recreate the original 26, 301A, 201A (for example) in its original form and design.  If that was done, that would signal Panerai is willing to manufacture to old spec and possibly risk dilutiing the value of the original models.  By keeping pieces/parts of attributes from historical models in their new model designs w/o duplicating old models in total, they keep the uniqueness of the vintage models and yet perpetuate the swag of Panerai's past in all their new models.  

At what point does every combination variation of history in new model designs become repetitive/redundant and not so collectable anymore to watch "collectors", (I certainly am not a collector but have a small collection)  In some ways I feel like the bettor of a nyc street shell game of Panerai variations, always drawn back to for a new game each time I lose.  Not that I lose with Panerai, but I'm always striving to get the real deal (historic/preVendome watch) and never quite get there.

So I'll hopefully end up getting the 26 and the 322 and fall passionately happy with for its design as it is, but never quite make it to that holy grail of original Panerai watches.

 I'm truly torn: amused, frustrated and excited at the same time.  When does this madness stop?

-David

do you like them (with your heart and wallet), or love (with your heart only) them.

The price is another issue.

IMO, I always buy a watch I love.

I hope to get one;

regards,

patrickh

Buy what you like is the golden rule, but at this price I can get other cult watches...Like the Pam 7 white dial + the Bomba Pam 64, and I'll even still have some money for a 232!
But if this 322 is your holy grail, its just perfcet...Go on it.
It was just my 2 cents, of course!
Best.
Nicolas

and ready for the 21st century with its titanium case.

I feel titanium warmer than steal on wrist, and brown dial with titanium suits me better than black dial and titanium.

I have an Amvox1 titanium and it is very nice with thier ruthenium dial.

Also to complete my Pam190 (black dial) with gold riva strap, a Pam322 will be great imo.

I do not like Patek and co as they are too much classic, too conventional for me. Another dream (yes a dream) the new repetition minute made by  FP Journe.

Best regards,

Patrickh

That may be the question.

No one is wrong or right, I think that that is really the moment to buy what you like, without other considerations or thoughtS;

That's why we are here, and when I read Patrickch completely in love with his future 322, I'm very happy and even excited for him...

That' sour main aim, after all, here.

Best.

Nicolas

 

I am finding as I get more into the Panerai brand that it is becoming apparent that many people are buying Panerai watches, especially limited editions, as pure investments for trading.  I am sure that most of the 322s will not see a wrist and will probably not have their stickers removed, but will be bought and sold at a premium, possibly within a few days of purchase from the AD.  A case in point is the ceramic 292.  One sold in the UK a week ago for nearly £7,000, that is double retail, and they are only just getting into the dealers.  It was obviously purchased with the aim of selling for a fast profit, and of course had denied a real Panerai enthusiast of getting one at the proper retail price.

I am resigned to the fact that I will probably have to pay 50-100% over retail for any limited edition Panerai, as I suspect that at least 50-75% of the orders will be from dealers and traders on the secondary market who want to make a quick profit.  A shame as I am really coming to appreciate the brand, and maybe naive of me to think things would be any different.

Just all IMHO of course

Simon

While many of tne new "high demand" models seem hard to buy at a ADl, I'm an example of one who found one of my "holy grail" panerais at the most impossible or unlikely time.  I bought the 246 from an AD back in December after reading Anthony Tsai's review of the timepiece back in October 2007.  While it is a special edition, (limited production) I worked hard and found one without the "premium".  Distribution for this 2006 SE started delivery in April 2007 and I believed none were available when I began my quest for the 246.  Many dealers said "sold out" to me. Perseverance paid off.  I called many ADs before I found one.  While many aftermarket dealers do buy to flip at a higher price, don't be frustrated by the for sale posts by owners and grey market dealers.  Many times they don't get what they ask for.

Some thoughts:

Assume that all Panerai are difficult to find, especially a specific model. 

Don't limit your search to only your local AD. Extend your search beyond your personal borders, (state, country, language).

Panerai doesn't deliver models in a single distribution.  From my experience, they do waves of model distributions purposefully to try preventing price exploitation and stocking by grey market dealers

Be informed on models and availability....Keep up on news announcements of new models...SIHH.  Be quick to call your contacts to be put on waiting lists

Establish close relationships with boutiques directors, who may have better access to model availability to limited editions.  

Establish close relationships with some preferred ADs. 

Establish close relationships with Panerai employees.  (I personally don't know any employees, but it seems some have gotten preferential treatment as a result of their friendship to employees....only human nature)

Persevere in seeking your desired model. 

You'll prevail, even in my circumstances...albeit not as coveted as the 249, hey but I'm only one of 300.

-David

I guess I got disallusioned when seeking the 249 and I rarely saw one that wasn't at least 30% and sometimes up to 50% over list price.  I called every UK AD the morning after the SIHH announcements and they already had ten deep waiting lists and they expected to get between 1 and 3 pieces each, so bacially they said it was unlikely I would get anything.

As you say, you need to get to know a few ADs and then to be patient.

Simon

OP would release a statement like this.  Afterall, the minerva movements are not NOS so there's nothing to stop them from making more future variations based on minerva movements if the 309/322 turns out to be huger sellers?