Officine Panerai

I have a humble request that happens to be extremely important to me.

What is the official stance of this forum towards postings about fake watches, frankenwatches, replicas or hommage watches?

Is it allowed or even endorsed to discuss these items here, do you simply turn the blind eye, or do you happen to have an actually policy against this kind of topic?

Thanks Ralf

I would have a very hard attitude against Fake, or Frankenwatches.

To me, it would be a NO POST here.

As for Hommage or Replicas, things are a bit more difficult, as the line between the Hommage / Replica and the FrankenFake watches is very thin, indeed.

Therefore, if we are strict about this, if we are extremists, we should even say that we don't have to post anything about Pre Vendome or Vendome watches, as they are replicas of the Vintage Panerai Watches.

Between the official or the non official Replica, I always see, at the end, a ...Replica.

Then, we have another problem with the Vintage Panerai:

If we trust some true excperts, only 200 to 300 Vintage Panerais were made, all the others being Fakes...

Who, except an expert, and there are not too many, can say that the Vintage is a true Vintage, or a Re Assrmbled watch by some malicious hands...???

You, for one, know the criteria: The history behind the watch, but this criteria leads us to count only 200 to 300 Authentic or undisputable Vintage Watches...

Too many guys had interest to present their watches as authentic, too many played with this concept for the oldest reason in the world: The Money!

So, should we have to prohibit any post about Vintage becasue in most of cases, we may have a doubt?

Who will tell us that this watch may be posted, but not this one?

To make it simple, we should prohibit such Frankenfake watches.

Should we also prohibit Replicas or Hommages for the same reason that we prohibit Frankenfake watches?

We may end with 2 or 3 posts per year...

Food for thought.

Thanks, Ralf, for bringing us this crucial question.

Best,

Nicolas

The head post title does not invite me to reply, BUT I’ve too >

In respect of intellectual properties, Replica or Homage are rightful and correct!

To me you are totally wrong when saying ‘ Therefore, if we are strict about this, if we are extremists, we should even say that we don't have to post anything about Pre Vendome or Vendome watches, as they are replicas of the Vintage Panerai Watches.’

When Officine Panerai in Firenze presented the 51218-201/A their brochure was title ‘The return of a legend’ and the subtitle was ‘a Special Replica of the watch worn by the special corps’

First you have to allow and consider that title and description was first in Italian, translated in English.  Secondly ‘Replica or homage’ issued, produced or manufactured by their rightful owner’s causes no arms and no disrespect to intellectual properties. 
We are far from ‘knock offs and replica’!

Moreover in the example of Pre-Vendome Panerai, somehow those pieces have since revolutionized almost everyone’s appreciation of ‘wristwatches’

In any case, even if you are an extremist, you cannot question ‘Homage or Replica pieces when made by their rightful owners.  Those pieces are entirely legitimate and authentic.

 

No food for thoughts ;-)

Of course you're right in a legal point of view about Replicas made by the owner of a brand.

And as a owner of Pre V pieces, and more than an owner, a Lover of these pieces, I perfectly understand their historical interest and their sentimental value.

Now about the Hommage, it all depends on how it is made...and by who, too, and of the purpose...

What can distinguish an Hommage from a Fake or a Frankenwatch?

What is acceptable, what is not acceptable, and who will decide?

That are, to me and in my opinion the main questions, and the main problematic.

Best,

Nicolas

I know you know what is a fake and what is a frankenwatch, so I will not define this for you.

I truly believe that Asi’s post below perfectly draws the line between what’s acceptable and what is not:   panerai.watchprosite.com

And I would add, if it leads anyone to businesses who unlawfully replicate materials, then to me it is a no-post.

You have to admit to on the matter here discussed, the project was fast moving… finding a home this fast is with no doubts not a from a personal production.

As for defining what is acceptable or not, despite my surprise, you know I am here only a guest and I respect my hosts guidelines.

is the easiest rule applied. Just like in Justice Potter Stewart's ruling...

 

Cheers,

Asi

Postings of fakes, such as those you can buy in Chinatown on Canal St. in NYC, is definitely prohibited.

Then the main concern of yours pertains to hommage / frankenwatches / replica pieces, whichever name you want to refer to these pieces as.

I am not going to make a new guideline just for these hommage pieces.  Obviously, if someone makes one and then tries to sell it, then yes those posts will be deleted.  But when someone makes a hommage watch for his own personal use, then I do not see the problem of allowing these posts.  Posts such as these, as Nicolas has stated above, maybe occur at most 3 times a year, heck maybe even only once a year max or once every several years.

We even have someone in our sister site ThePuristS.com's AP forum who likes to take apart his AP's and mix and match the hands, dials, etc. and then assemble them back to together in non-stock configurations.  His frankenwatches are interesting to see IMO.

As Art has stated in his post in the below thread ( panerai.watchprosite.com ), you obviously have a vested interest in this topic since you are a vintage collector.

Unfortunately, over here on this site, passion takes preference over someone's commercial interest in his collection.  I've known Guille for many years, and he has the Panerai passion we all share.  Futhermore, Guille, disclosing to me has has no vested interest in your new book, even brought a copy of your new book to our Panerai event this past Tuesday to show to everyone because he wanted to spread your vintage knowledge and passion to everyone there.  We don't allow shilling to occur at our events but since I know this was done through passion, I turned a blind eye on this that night.

If creation of hommage pieces has a negative impact on your vintage collection, that really is not this forum's concern.  Creation of hommage pieces happens all the time, so there is no way stopping them.  Yes, we could ban these postings from this forum but censoring content does not take precedence over sharing passion here.

You and other vintage collectors may feel otherwise, but that is how I feel in relation to this topic.  If the vast majority of the participants in this forum adamantly disagree with my views, then I will consider a ban on this hommage topic.

Best,
Anthony

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2009-06-21 08:41:41

I think that one day you will understand my point.

 

 

Project watches are OK if they are like this:

 

 

That is like your friend from AP, creating something that cannot pass for anything else than it is - a project.

 

My problem is giving a stage to project watches that use the original parts and try to copy the exact original. If someone is so keen on doing this (and I don't see many people presenting any watchmaking skills while doing it, just finding the watchmaker and paying the bills), let them - but why here on the Purists? There are many other forums that can house such posts. I know Guille for many years and know his passion is genuine. There have been others who's passion took then to the wrong places and I think the worse is yet to come:

 

Picture and project 'credit' to KR

 

Cheers,

Asi

 

but I just do not think hommage pieces such as Guille's really negatively affect the prices of vintage pieces.  Ralf has I believe 2 books out on Vintage Panerai so those 2 books right there already increase the awareness of vintage pieces, hopefully causing them to increase in value.  Hommage pieces such as Guille's may take vintage parts out of the market and cause replacement parts to be more scarce, hence rising pricings of these parts.  But then that probably leads to higher prices overall for vintage pieces.

There's no concrete evidence that hommage pieces cause vintage pieces to decline in value.  And cause of that, that is another reason why I'm not inclined to ban the discussion of these hommage project watches.  In fact, I think it may increase the value of vintage pieces such as how the PAM195 skyrocketed the prices of all Panerai PVD pieces.

The vintage Panerai community is such a small tight knit community that only a very miniscule # of people really care about creation of these hommage pieces IMO.  And in today's world of technology and internet, I highly doubt any more vintage Panerai pieces will be discovered in someone's attic or shoe box in the closet.  I would not be surprised if the Panerai vintage community has all the known pieces documented already.  There can only be a handful more left "undiscovered" if at all IMO.

I just checked Paneristi .com and looks like they banned any threads of hommage pieces, but we will not do the same.

Thanks for understanding my position.

Best,
Anthony

 

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2009-06-21 10:14:51

The fact that Ralf is writing these books is also partially to blame for people wanting to create hommage pieces.  There is nothing as a one way street in today's day an age.  Ralf is increasing awareness of vintage pieces, and as a consequence, there will be more people wanting to create hommage pieces.  Whether or not their intent is for the good is another story though.

 Ralf cannot expect to only just benefit from his books because the rise in popularity of vintage pieces will have consequences.  This is a perfect example of cause and effect. 

- AT

You fail to understand my point. I don't care about the value of vintage Panerai. I don't sell them and I didn't write any book.

I, am just obsessed with the history and the heritage of Panerai and I feel that a stage should not be granted to those who manipulate this.

 

Anthony - not everything revolves around value. Some things are about values. Good for Paneristi for not allowing these posts. I'll still frequent this forum nevertheless

 

Asi

Would we be pleased to see " Hommage " or replicas or Frankenfake waches on the Rolex, PP, VC, Blancpain, Breguet or JLC forum, for example?

Would we be pleased to see the only value which is of some interest here, the culture of the Beauty, going down with all these watches?

Would we accept to pay the price of such an outcome?

Personnaly, NO.

Best,

Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2009-06-21 11:56:26

You are just pursuing purity and there is nothing wrong with that.  Some of us have 'worked' years and I can understand how deranged one would feel when confronted with short-cut plans.

My friend…

I am just pointing out one part of why I don't think it's good to ban these posts.  The point I'm sure you think I'm not seeing is that allowing posts such as Guille's "facilitates" or "assists" those with malicious intent into creating fake vintages which may be difficult to authenticate if real or fake.  I know you have aren't looking at this from a $$$ perspective.  I'm just pointing out other points which also have bearing on this topic.

The point I'm trying to counter with you is the principle of censorship.  Whether or not we should censor people who have genuine passion or whether we should hit the delete button because these people's passion may lead to unscrupulous individuals creating fake vintage pieces and trying to pass them off as genuine vintage pieces in the future.  Guille's post, if I remember correctly, is the 1st post on hommage pieces since this Panerai forum was created in October 2007.  Hommage pieces has and never will be a focus in this forum.  One incident does not warrant total censorship.

And how does Guille creating a hommage piece manipulate the history and heritage of Panerai?  It doesn't affect anything related to history and heritage IMO.  The only thing it affects is making vintage collectors turn red with disgust.  And frankly, that is not of my concern.  If Guille created a hommage PAM21, would I care?  Nope not at all.  I could care less if he tried to make a hommage PAM21.

The vintage Panerai community is very close knit and highly concentrated in Europe.  If they're upset at hommage pieces, that is not my concern at all and it shouldn't be this forum's concern either.  The main concern for me is how do these hommage pieces affect Panerai the brand today?  It doesn't affect Panerai at all IMO, and so, I do not see any of this as any type of danger.  Yes it may be a danger to the Panerai vintage community, but it has no bearing on Panerai's products that it sells today.  That is the only thing I care about, and anything else related to this topic all revolves around $$$ even if it's of no concern to you.

- AT

 

a post once in two years. I hope it stays that way because I know another forum where every other post is one. I like the atmosphere here which is both professional and courteous. I like the fact that we can have a little fun too, without stepping into the lifestyle posts. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with those kind of posts, I am just happy that people found other forums to post them. Same applies to genuine home-made homage. If Guille posts his, it's OK because we know Guille and if a newcomer posts it's maybe not OK? I hope this debate didn't open any doors.

 

And, last time I checked, I live in Asia

 

Cheers,

 

Asi

Re: The definition of hommage, frankenwatch, etc

Concerning the 3646 dial that sparked this question:

What is to be done with this orphaned 3646 dial?

Does one track down it's original case, movement, hands? An improbable task impossible to verify.

Does one put it in an existing 3646, whose dial is in worse condition? Is this not a Frankenwatch? A destruction of history?

Or should it be framed and placed on a wall (as suggested by someone on the thread below)?

Is not the mere existence of such a dial, in some ways, a threat to the provenance of many of the originals?

 

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Dr No on 2009-06-21 22:06:50

Between 1991-1993, at the change of Panerai in Firenze premises, a total of approx 600 dials (then called rejects, used or discarded) along with other materials were purchased by two people. 

In 1998, Panerai (Vendome) was offered a chance to buy over those dials and parts but however far the deal went, Panerai (Vendome) did not conclude it.

Not orphaned at all.

 

Not being in a watch, and unlikely to ever be returned it's original watch...What would you call it?

And to the point, what would you do with it?

I had a few, most ended as GIFT to people who owned original pieces!  As a replacement/  and the 2 I keep I enclosed in metal display cases.

Hi Poy,

In some ways, that's my point. If you have a Rolex Sub with a service dial in it, it'll generally be less regarded than the original.

Now there's thousands and thousands of Subs about, so why would anyone replace a dial in the incomparibly rarer 3646?

 

 

 

 

Anything happens to watches, when parts or dials get damaged often they can only be replced by serviced dial or parts or dial made differently that the original. 

In the case of a 3646 'California' or 'Radiomir Panerai', those dials will be impossible to replace with anything close to the original, hence in my case gifting collectors who owned those like pieces.

 

That the likelihood of any dial damage occuring to a 3646 these days would approach zero.

(That said, it would be good to have a spare)

Personally, as typed above, given that the dial is close to the soul of these watches (the part Panerai contributed 100% to) I am surprised the existence of so many spare/orphaned/found dials out in the wild doesn't cause greater concern with collectors.

 

 

1. Rolex Bexley damaged a gilt dial of my 5513 whilst in service, they had no replacement dials to match, luckily I had one!

2. A good watchmaker after de-assembling my watch, whilst in the operation of cleaning the dial, his eyeglasses dropped on it, the dial was 'damaged', again luckily I had a replacement.

3. Whilst swimming in the Mediterranean close to a boat, my brother was wearing my PAM 00040 his wrist knocked the side of the boat causing the glass to crack and water pouring into the watch, luckily PANERAI had all replacement parts needed, including the dial

As for collector's concerns of original parts being available, it has been raised a long time ago, as well as our concern of so many fake parts and watches being around. 

On the chapter of Panerai original Vintage parts, they are not as many as for other horology famous brands.  It is annoying but there is nothing or so little we can do other than contesting those what-and-how-to-do posts.

on your point "It is annoying but there is nothing or so little we can do other than contesting those what-and-how-to-do posts."

That there is no Vintage Panerai center goes without saying, it is not as though one can just buy a dial from Panerai we know that too.

My dial had been on the market for 1 full year!! Really it was not that much of an opportunistic purchase, it was online at a well known store and available for anyone with access to Google.

Given the dialogue over the past days it surprises me that no other collector looking for a spare picked it up, over a period of an entire year.

You say there is "little we can do", but I believe that might not be completely correct at least in the case of this dial and at least the past 12 month time-frame.

Guille,

You are a Panerai enthusiast since long time ago, so it is no news to you that there isn’t an official Panerai Vintage center, however I am sure that you know the 2 or 3 people that have had a lots of Vintage parts including a substantial amount of dial (for most genuine), thus  it should not be of any surprise to you that an isolate dial was in the market for ‘x’ amount of time.

Collectors probably passed on the offer of this isolate dial probably because either they have a spare dial already or they know where to get one if needed.  Of course however strange this may sound, 2 of the known stocker have moved to only supply spare parts to people owning real Vintage watches.

Like you I draw the line between the 2 self explanatory examples you used.

In going further, the problem I see when tolerating the publication of bill-paid-parts-project is that eventually it leads many others to unauthorized sources that produces with no limits and in total disrespect to brand’s patrimony and intellectual properties

As you also said, there are many watches forums out there, each serving a philosophy. I am not a snob nor did I became one, but I am surprised and find it very odd to find bill-paid-parts-projects as here discussed to be here welcome.

I must say that I am a guest in this house, I highly value its community and respect everyone opinions and positions.

There is a big difference...

Again, my question to myself is: is there another watch brand forum, where people build their own watches together and are allowed to show them? I feel the attemp of "making it as close as possible to the original" is not a good developement for vintage Panerai and the Panerai brand in general...

 

Dissapointed,
Volker

. . . and routinely delete posts on the G O forum whenever fakes are posted. Any watch produced with an intent to deceive is fraudulent, and has no place here. "Fake" watches squarely fall within that category.

"Frankenwatches" are watches cobbled together from parts sourced from a variety of sources, and when the intent behind their production is fraudulent, as is almost always the case, they are also the subject of intense scrutiny. Unfortunately, both fakes and frankens are usually posted by the victims of the perpetrators of the fraud, and they only learn of their loss after posting on the forum.

"Replicas", like the Ocean 7 Ploprof, and "hommages" like RWX, are rarely seen here, but they aren't banned per se as their production is legitimate, however diluted in horological terms. There is no pretense involved in their production, so while they might not be to everyone's taste, they are acceptable. The natural audience for these watches resides on other forums, thankfully ;-).

The determinative issue is intent, Ralf. A project watch like Guille's that is openly posted with complete disclosure as to means and methods of production is simply not fraudulent, and can be shared on the forum. It may not be to anyone's taste, but the proper response is to offer commentary in polite and measured tones . . . regrettably, this was not the case with regards to the thread in question, and that is why I felt compelled to issue my response, even though I am not a member of the Panerai community. Cordially, Art

Dear forumners,

Somewhere in this thread, someone asked if we would be as tolerant to see discussions about replica, remakes, hommage watches on Rolex, Breguet etc forums.

Let's be clear: "Only fake people wear fake watches!"

Whatever you call them, anything made with the INTENT of fraud is a fake.

As a marketing success story, modern Panerai started as a culture of talking up and making a few hundred old watches, allegedly used by a couple of Mediterranean so-called "navies" into cult objects.  So, it is expected that there is nothing to talk about except to pay homage  to those examples. 

So, would we be tolerant about "hommage" Other Brands watches being discussed on their forums?  -  probably No.  Those communities are used to discussing real watches.

For viintage Panerai, what else is there to talk about?   It's like people reproducing old cars or overhauling into something they are not.  A plastic kit car that looks like a AC Shelby Cobra is still not the real thing.

Maybe, if people would focus on the hundreds of  thousands of real Panerai produced today, we won't need to have this discussion thread?

 

Regards,

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2009-06-21 12:33:26

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