Rolex

.....50% or more of those were 6239???

a direct answer due to production overlap between 6239/6241 and 6262/6264.
I can answer you in another way : there are two kinds of PN dials for steel 6239 :
1) type 1 with " square DAYTONA " in use for PN dials from the beginning up to around 2.000.000 ( also in this case there is an overlap so nobody besides Rolex can exactly say when they have moved to the 2nd type ) :

as you can easily see the first " A " has a square ( or " sail " ) shape.

2) type 2 with " sloped DAYTONA " ( dial used also for 6262-6264 ) : from 2.000.000 circa up to end of production for 6239/6241 ( which roughly occours around 2.500.000 ) :

as you can see in type 2 ( also called " 6262 " dial ) the word DAYTONA has much thiner fonts and the first " A " is sloped to the left ; letters have btw far more evident serifs.


some very important tips :
a) in both types the words " ROLEX COSMOGRAPH " have the very same fonts.
b) in both types aux. counters numbers have the very same fonts .

to answer ( at last ... LLOOLL ) your question : in my opinion according to what I have seen untill now .. the amount of both types is roughly the same as you can almost find more " type 2 " PN dials in 6262/6264 than regular ones . 

 ( got to add another pic of the type 2 ( or " 6262 " dial ) as the other posted above was not enough good for comparison with type 1. )

This message has been edited by marcello pisani on 2013-11-12 06:29:19

....many thanks for such a detailed answer....and also for that illustration on types.....I will now need to check my own dial!!

no need to check your watch : with a black dial it can be only a " type 1 "  :

the printing " T SWISS T " in the type1 is nicknamed " roof " due to the increasing and decreasing shape of the word SWISS :
there are 3 different shapes ( high , middle and low " roof " ).

there are 3 correct different versions of the printing " T SWISS T " at 6 .
type 2 has just one correct shape ( the word SWISS must be flat ).  

in your first post you mention - " batches of replacement dials ( made with the same dies )"

Is there a way to tell these dials from the two you show?

about your question : first of all I'm speaking only of dial with the correct SINGER punch in the back ( two types also for this feature ) and thus accepted by Rolex  and not about dials with no punch at all or with a  " fantasy " punch .
for what I know there are replacements only for OYSTER PN dials ( still made in the 70s )
as the SINGER punch in the back and the fonts are the same ( there are 4 different genuine ROC fonts + one RCO )...
I think the only difference is probably the different shade of the main dial.
the question is still " pending " ( LLOOLLL ) as some people consider one of the ROC version as an early replacement ....
the main problem is that Rolex has never confirmed to have a list of case numbers born with a PN dial ( either with free or screw-down ones ) ...but in any case AFAIK they don't give this kind of information to anybody.
to add further " casino " ( confusion ) it's crystal clear that many people asked to the AD to change the PN dial with a standard one .. as this particular dial was at the time a sort of commercial failure ...
another BIG casino is the fact that from the early 90s on many people has put genuine ( but also fake ) dials on watches with a standard dial ...

It's much appreciated.

I really appreciate and like the Daytona as a watch and the PN dial is very beautiful. It was certainly not my aim to question a collectors desire or the value they may place on it.

The cocktail that goes into why we want a watch is personal, and often complicated. I've learned that unless you are inside a particular brand or model it is very
hard to understand what drives the motivation to acquire that variation. I am afflicted of the same illness, as you know, so I won't throw stones in my own glass house.

I understand that as a collector I might pay a lot for a watch that is rare but seemingly of less quality or value than others in order to complete a personal collection, if that something is missing from my own watchbox and will complete a theme for me. Or I will pay for a rare version of a watch, because I desire or understand the value of that rarity. I often find myself as a collector buying watches that I think have an audience of one - me. So I get all of that.

Bill said that "I guess the boat has left with the Rolex Daytona", yet the other auction results one either day of the Christies sale, don't seem to reflect the prices fetched in that sale.

So it's back to the question of why have Christies achieved a higher amount, not by a fractional amount, but by a huge amount, with single Daytona's selling for quarter, half and three quarter of a million dollars. To understand this question is the interest for me. It's not one of about the collectability or desirability of the Daytona, PN or not.

If I was in the market for a Rolex Daytona, would I now be looking at Christies results and thinking, that's where I need to go to get my Daytona! As a buyer does it inspire me that I would be buying something on a level playing field to the other options I might have? If I bought one of the variations that sold in the other two auctions, how would I feel about Christie's as a buyer?

So it comes back to the question, what stardust has Christies added that Sotheby's and Antiquorum just don't have? Or course this is qualified by the fact that I can't judge whether the watches between the three auctions have a fair comparability - so far no one has pointed out to me why the Christie's watches are rarer, in better condition or have the potential for the huge premium they fetched than the ones in the other auctions. I'm totally open to believing there is an explanation?

If all things are equal between the watches then either the premium has been paid because the buyers want to own a watch with the Christie's provenance, which may be enough to pay the premium, especially if Rolex as a brand won't authenticate the watches, then this is one way to do it. Or they have gotten auction fever, which I can understand as well. Or something else is happening???

Of course we don't know how many of the sales will go through, I'm not aware if Christie's publishes the data - I suspect not. We are also not aware of who actually bought these watches. Interestingly Christie's did publish some data on who bought the watches in the auction last year, which is cryptic but might have some clues.

(Credit - Chrsties.com)

This message has been edited by Ubik on 2013-11-12 09:32:36

You asked what stardust christies has that others don't have?

At the same time on a well known internet website there are around 150 Daytona Valjoux for sale, and some are here since months or years...

No one seriously believe that an auction wil lead to results which 2,3 or 5 times the high estimation on every lot, a buzz was created good job.
And that happened only Christies; results at Sothebys and Antiquorum were not crazy.

But if you say that's it's just clever marketing, then Christies is then to be the best place to sell your watch by far... and the worse to buy

cheers

François

No message body

No message body

and can't sell them for a small part of the christies results.

We may talk of this sale for a long time.

thanks for sharing Bill

François

As much as Rolex for me is the ultimate 'brand builder' in this world, the best marketeers in the world simply, as much the people 'involved' in Rolex vintage watch dealing are simpy geniuses. The way Rolex sports models from 50s-70s are built up into an asset class is simply incredible.

I am coming from the chronometer side of watch collecting (marine chronometers, observatory pieces, etc.), so very much from the movement and 'inner qualities' - and now if you think about it, these Rolex Daytonas don't even have an in-house movement (except for the new ones, which, ironically, weren't even the expensive ones). Just think about how we often down-talk all watches without in-house movements. And here, it's not even mentioned once.

So, firstly, not even in-house movements. A good solid movement, but neither the top-of-the-call chronograph movement. A simple Valjoux 72.

Secondly: most dials are damaged. But, hey, who cares, just turn this into something desirable. It's 'spider-web' (totally cracked), 'tropical' (lost colour, bc at the time the quality was just not good enough), 'underline' (printing screw-up), 'black out' (luminous dots fell off), or : JUST COMBINE IT ALL.

Thirdly, every slight variation of fonts or any other dots (Simpson crown etc.) on a densely printed dial is interpreted as a desirable rarity.

So, mass outsourced movement, damaged dials, slightest variations of dial design =six digit acution result.

Simply geniuses the people involved in 'building' this market (I hear it's a lot of dealers trading between themselves also)....

But at the end of the day: a good is worth what somebody is willling to pay for it. As simple as that. So kudos to the sellers who put their watches into that auction, and good luck for the buyers. Hope at least they genuinely like their tropical dials etc. and didn't only buy for investment.

 

 

 

 

Very well said.

Best,

Nicolas

... i've once stated it in a different manner over here, and got the Rolex fans upset. But totally agree with you. Now if we take it a little deeper, it would be interesting to see all the dealers and vintage collectors that have similar models but can't sell them at 1/2 or even 1/4 some of the prices we saw this week end.

what on earth makes you think that? It is called speculation, it is an old game and today due to the GFC and QE1,2,2.5 and 3 the stakes are just getting higher. In the end some will be bitten harder too. Agree totally with your post.

Cheers

Francois from Down Under

yes, and it shows in what a polarised world we live in. Whilte ECB lowers interest rates out of fear of deflation (!), which might be the reality for 99% of people, there is an incredible asset price bubble building up in art market, real estate and vintage watches & cars. The people who need the money don't get the credit no matter at what interest rate (bc they don't have the rating to get it), and the people who don't need more and have enough now can get even mroe at lower interest rates. And this is being used now to 'invest' in collectibles of all sort. Money for free for the ones who already have and only so much things one can spend it on.

Anyway, to put the vintage watch market/price into perspective: The whole of the Christie's auction yesterday yielded about CHF 28 mio. This is for more than 300 important lots. And this is less than the auction result for a single Giacometti drawing/painting (not even a sculpture he is most famous for), which I believe reached more than CHF 30 mio. So....maybe watches are still cheap???

Sotherby's 2011 Auction - lot 280 – an extremely rare Oyster Cosmograph Daytona “Paul Newman” with inverted lines dating from circa 1967 sold for CHF 206,500 ($233,120), comfortably exceeding the pre-sale estimate of CHF 100,000-150,000 ($111,000-166,000).

Source Sotherby's

Important Watches, Geneva, Sunday, May 15, 2011

That's not a fair comparison, that was before the fine, sublime spiderweb pattern was discovered in the subdials!

No message body

It just seems a little crazy to say the least.

The papers in the original one sold at Sotherby's?????

Bill

on a previous post venturing to describe a possible profile of the buyer I stated a probable quick 10% profit I just realised that I missed a "0"

Cheers

Francois from Down Under

 

description:

ROLEX REF 6239 COSMOGRAPH DAYTONA TROPICAL DIAL Rolex, "Cosmograph Daytona" case No. 2005234, Ref. 6239. Made in 1969. Very fine and rare, water-resistant, stainless steel wristwatch with round button chronograph, registers, tachometer

Estimate: 35,000 CHF - 55,000 CHF
(USD 37,000 - 58,000)
Result 43,750 CHF

description:

ROLEX REF 6265 STEEL COSMOGRAPH DAYTONA ASTRUA DIAL Rolex, "Oyster Cosmograph Daytona Astrua", case No.8616972, Ref. 6265. Made in 1984. Very fine and rare, water-resistant, stainless steel wristwatch with round button chronograph, registers, tachometer and a stainless steel Rolex Oyster bracelet with deployant clasp. Accompanied by fitted box and guarantee.
Estimate: 45,000 CHF - 65,000 CHF
(USD 48,000 - 70,000)

Result 56,250 CHF

description

ROLEX, REF. 6263 COSMOGRAPH DAYTONA, ORIGINAL WARRANTY AND INVOICE Rolex, Genève, Oyster Cosmograph Daytona, case No. 3536888, Ref. 6263. Made in 1973, sold on December 12th, 1974. Fine, water-resistant, stainless steel wristwatch with black bezel, round button chronograph, registers, tachometer and a stainless steel Rolex Oyster folded bracelet Ref. 7835. Accompanied by the original fitted box, warranty, sales invoice in the amount of 995 DM, instruction booklet and various service invoices

Estimate: 22,000 CHF - 32,000 CHF
(USD 23,500 - 34,000)
result

31,250 CHF

description

ROLEX REF 6262 "BLUE" DAYTONA RETAILED BY TIFFANY & CO. Rolex, "Oyster Cosmograph Daytona," retailed by Tiffany & Co., case No.2547550, Ref. 6262. Made in 1970. Very fine and rare, water-resistant, stainless steel wristwatch with round button chronograph, registers, tachometer and a stainless steel Rolex Oyster bracelet Ref. 78350 with deployant clasp
Estimate: 30,000 CHF - 40,000 CHF
(USD 32,000 - 43,000)
result

36,250 CHF

description

ROLEX REF. 6239 PAUL NEWMAN RETAILED BY TIFFANY Rolex, Cosmograph Daytona, case No. 1988061, Ref. 6239. Made in 1969. Fine and extremely rare, water-resistant, stainless steel wristwatch with round button chronograph, registers, tachometer and a stainless steel Rolex folded Oyster bracelet (Ref. 7835) and deployant clasp.
Estimate: 100,000 CHF - 150,000 CHF
(USD 110,600 - 166,000)
result

195,750 CHF

 

I am no expert but the Christies results seem more and more weird to me.

Insanity at it's greatest IMHO! 

LLOOLLLLLL

No message body

No message body