Comments:
Learning curve
Nicolas thats the great thing about vintage watches. You always learn something new.
Christies (unless you don't believe their research) just sold a super fine (except for the newer hands)
exceptional 4L dial for nearly $90'ooo. They are probably pretty rare which explains the price did more
than 4x the low estimate.
I personally saw the watch and inspected it. The dial was one of the nicest dials I have ever seen in ANY Rolex.
It is only the newer hands that was the (somewhat big) minus point.
If you want pictures of the watch- let me know. Happy to send one.
Best Edmond
Yes, but the question is to know if a 4 lines ( superlative chronometer )
originally came with this Watch which is from, I think, a previous prod year...
I woiuld be curious to see pictures of the Watch, including the serial number, and the Inside case back showing the quartal and the year...
Best,
Nicolas.
here you are mon amì ...
yes it's a " 4 lines " of printing but obviously an OCC and not a SCOC .. so you guys are telling the same story ( it's just a little misunderstanding ) :
Change
Your right. That can easily change. The one constant we can be sure in life is change.
Talking about change here is a bet I am willing to publicly make: I bet in 5 yrs time
that the PN mania we are witnessing today will recede. It will still be important
but it will not carry the 'hysteria' we are witnessing now.
Best Edmond
ps: Your right - it is an interesting observation, I wonder why this is so.
I would have thought vintage Patek to be more prominent on this Forum.
Maybe it has to do with discretion. Patek collectors are notoriously private
people. Not so with Rolex 
Thank you for your thorough report and interesting thoughts...
... about both the Auction itself, and the course of collecting at present and near future.
I read it with great interest, being so far of the Great Centers of collecting and auctioning, this is a world so far from my reach, and so captivating at same time.
I only regret to understand that some brands and models are so highly priced now, that they turn to be only "dream watches" to me and to many collectors and lovers of these timepieces. The trend will never revert I´m afraid, at least with those models you referred (e.g. Daytonas, Big Crowns, vintage Patek chronos, etc.)
Thank you for taking your time for sharing your experience and your thoughs with us dear Joe!
Best cordial regards, Abel.
I read it with great interest, being so far of the Great Centers of collecting and auctioning, this is a world so far from my reach, and so captivating at same time.
I only regret to understand that some brands and models are so highly priced now, that they turn to be only "dream watches" to me and to many collectors and lovers of these timepieces. The trend will never revert I´m afraid, at least with those models you referred (e.g. Daytonas, Big Crowns, vintage Patek chronos, etc.)
Thank you for taking your time for sharing your experience and your thoughs with us dear Joe!
Best cordial regards, Abel.
I agree on most ....
not too bad English after all ... LOL LOL LOL
just a small tip : in my opinion Rolex is beginning to pursue Patek so close as many collectors have realised that some watches have an history behind while most don't !
just a small tip : in my opinion Rolex is beginning to pursue Patek so close as many collectors have realised that some watches have an history behind while most don't !
Agree..,,
The Rolexes that are skyrocketing are those that have a history. That is what is resonating with uber wealthy collectors. That applies to omani watches, COMEXes, mil subs etc. let's not forget a milsub fetched almost 200k. What this does mean though is not the demise of Patek but a sharing of the podium with historically significant Rolexes. Happily, I'm a collector of both!!!
I think this is an interesting point....
.....rarity is a necessary but not sufficient factor. But..... what goes into making something stratospherically desirable for a collector is a mixture of factors, and yes, Marcello, I think this is one that is only just beginning to be reflected.......HISTORY.
Edmond, we had a discussion a few months ago about Sea-Dwellers and my argument was that the SD was a pivotal watch for Rolex in terms of its significance to the brand. It carries with it enormous amounts of history...connection with Comex, connection with pushing new boundaries.
History is a very big point here and I suspect will continue to drive the Rolex vintage world for along time yet. Of course, history (by definition) has always been there, but it seems that vintage collectors have now really opened their eyes to it and started to recognise its importance. Nicolas and I recently discussed rarity. I am one of those for who rarity does matter for a number of reasons, but when allied with historical significance, then yes, this combination is a killer. And if you then layer on top of that a watch that has stunning condition......BOOM.
Now, imagine that one's main theme in Rolex is collecting Daytonas. Now imagine that an essentially unique Daytona becomes available and it has the attached history of a gold omani logo on the dial.
rarity......history....superb condition.....BOOM.
Totally logical. Remove the rarity aspect, and you don't get the boom. Remove the history and you don't get the boom. Remove the condition....well, the auction showed that you get a fizz, but not a boom.
As the saying goes, in vintage Rolex world, these are "interesting times."
I must say that I agree with you on the way you put it, my friend.
One factor, only one factor, but one factor.
Best,
Nicolas
Great summary....so now the question of the day....
Does your 16660 COMEX have box and papers too? ;-D
666 with box and papers!!
Ask Marcello...we had an interesting private chat about this !!!
Great read, interesting thoghts
There were 2 other sales in Geneva about the same date. Putting the results of these sales together would give a better picture. I noted for example the prices of CHF 60K and 67K for Milgauss ref 1019, which is not that bad. No explorers of real quality in either of these auctions. As you know, it is dangerous to generalise.
What about provenance
A fascinating read Baron.
I think there is another question I would bring into play and that is of provenace.
I have to admire Patek's support of their vintage collectors and watches. It would seem that a few years ago they took a deliberate decision to
get involved in the vintage market and make that part of it's branding, it's cultural DNA so to speak. There is a peace of mind that potentially comes
with buying a vintage Patek that makes you feel you can be "sure" that what you have just payed a lot of money for is correct.
Whether that's true or not, I don't know personally, but it is certainly the impression I get from them in the vinatge world.
Rolex haven't done that and yet it doesn't seem to have dented their financial collectability. Why do you think that is?
Or do the professional watches (MilSub, Comex) that have achieved the highest price in this auction have an element of provenance that other versions of the same watch lack?
Another thought. In terms of what I would call professional watches, there has been for a number of years a growing hierarchy, with military issued watches becoming more and more sought after, the civilian versions of these watches have also gone up, but the differential between the two has also gotten a lot wider. However interesting, rare or early professional watches have also seen a steady rise. Is the Rolex sale, perhaps, more of an indicator that the market is becoming more fascinated with professional watches as they are brought to their attention?
In terms of Rolex Vs Patek, I wonder if this might be driven by a different buyer becoming stronger in the market. There's no two ways around it a vintage Patek is on the small side, in terms of wearability, also IMHO their chrongraphs are elegant, but don't appeal to a growing collector market who prizes size, strength of design and a utilitarian aesthetic. Rolex's size hit the sweet spot I think for a lot of wrists. Like bubblebacks have faded due to size for the modern collector who prizes this, over say interesting or historical complications, perhaps there is a shift happening here as well?
My personal fascination are in those brands that have a history of supplying professional watches and that can give their collectors a sense of provenance on their watches.
I think there is another question I would bring into play and that is of provenace.
I have to admire Patek's support of their vintage collectors and watches. It would seem that a few years ago they took a deliberate decision to
get involved in the vintage market and make that part of it's branding, it's cultural DNA so to speak. There is a peace of mind that potentially comes
with buying a vintage Patek that makes you feel you can be "sure" that what you have just payed a lot of money for is correct.
Whether that's true or not, I don't know personally, but it is certainly the impression I get from them in the vinatge world.
Rolex haven't done that and yet it doesn't seem to have dented their financial collectability. Why do you think that is?
Or do the professional watches (MilSub, Comex) that have achieved the highest price in this auction have an element of provenance that other versions of the same watch lack?
Another thought. In terms of what I would call professional watches, there has been for a number of years a growing hierarchy, with military issued watches becoming more and more sought after, the civilian versions of these watches have also gone up, but the differential between the two has also gotten a lot wider. However interesting, rare or early professional watches have also seen a steady rise. Is the Rolex sale, perhaps, more of an indicator that the market is becoming more fascinated with professional watches as they are brought to their attention?
In terms of Rolex Vs Patek, I wonder if this might be driven by a different buyer becoming stronger in the market. There's no two ways around it a vintage Patek is on the small side, in terms of wearability, also IMHO their chrongraphs are elegant, but don't appeal to a growing collector market who prizes size, strength of design and a utilitarian aesthetic. Rolex's size hit the sweet spot I think for a lot of wrists. Like bubblebacks have faded due to size for the modern collector who prizes this, over say interesting or historical complications, perhaps there is a shift happening here as well?
My personal fascination are in those brands that have a history of supplying professional watches and that can give their collectors a sense of provenance on their watches.
slight ammendment
I tried to edit the post on re-reading, but missed the deadline.
I wanted to change my last thought to something more general like --
-- I wonder if provenance across all the major brands won't become more prized over the next few years and the shift I've seen to professional larger watches will also continue.
This message has been edited by Ubik on 2014-05-16 10:53:53
I wanted to change my last thought to something more general like --
-- I wonder if provenance across all the major brands won't become more prized over the next few years and the shift I've seen to professional larger watches will also continue.
This message has been edited by Ubik on 2014-05-16 10:53:53
Indeed very important
PP does have one huge asset for collectors. Your point is extremely important and one that nobody had mentioned so far. I also value that in buying Patek.
You rightfully point out that it is an important part of their DNA in supporting the collectors in various was (accurate database, buying back watches for their museum and knowing when every single watch left their factory even if it is over 150 years ago).
Indeed Rolex leaves their collectors to their own devices- perhaps the biggest potential area where things go wrong (i.e. super dealer west coast vs Rock star).
However this may sound crazy and perverse but there is something attractive about 'not knowing what exactly your getting yourself into'. It forces collectors to do their homework very very carefully and the reward becomes even greater when you do find a watch that is perfect. Another indirect positive is that it allows a community like the VRF to grow strong and bond together. Collectors gather in groups and help one another supporting one another. This bonding is also very powerful and helps create a 'myth' around the vintage Rolex brand in terms of what is good, bad, desirable, etc.
With the interest in watch rising- there is certainly room for many brands to delight collectors. Certainly there is room for both brands to thrive and grow. But there is no doubt right now the momentum is with Rolex. Perhaps your point about the size cannot be underestimated.
Thank you for your post you bring up many interesting points!
best Edmond
PP - DNA supporting collectors
PP does have one huge asset for collectors. Your point is extremely important and one that nobody had mentioned so far. I also value that in buying Patek.
You rightfully point out that it is an important part of their DNA in supporting the collectors in various was (accurate database, buying back watches for their museum and knowing when every single watch left their factory even if it is over 150 years ago).
Indeed Rolex leaves their collectors to their own devices- perhaps the biggest potential area where things go wrong (i.e. super dealer west coast vs Rock star).
However this may sound crazy and perverse but there is something attractive about 'not knowing what exactly your getting yourself into'. It forces collectors to do their homework very very carefully and the reward becomes even greater when you do find a watch that is perfect. Another indirect positive is that it allows a community like the VRF to grow strong and bond together. Collectors gather in groups and help one another supporting one another. This bonding is also very powerful and helps create a 'myth' around the vintage Rolex brand in terms of what is good, bad, desirable, etc.
With the interest in watch rising- there is certainly room for many brands to delight collectors. Certainly there is room for both brands to thrive and grow. But there is no doubt right now the momentum is with Rolex. Perhaps your point about the size cannot be underestimated.
Thank you for your post you bring up many interesting points!
best Edmond
Ubik....
.....you make a number of very valid points.
Look at the Rolex forum and the Patek forum. The first is domianted by vintage collectors whereas the latter is dominated by collectors of modern. Why has that happened? Well, I think a part of it is due to the fact that vintage Rolex is actually a little more colourful. It has more "stories" attached. It has more history in the sense of uses as tool watches. That will naturally lend itself well to the process of glamorisation of a genre.
In terms of size of watch, on this i think it is nothing more than fashion phase. I spoke with a number of manufacturers recently and they all noted that the peak in watch size has now passed and that there is a clear sign that smaller watches are becoming demanded relative to the larger ones. Take even Rolex....the DeepSea just didn't sell so well simply because it was too big...instead, Rolex release a much smaller Sea-Dweller, and I am sure that will sell much better. Patek is not about tool watches, and hence it makes no sense that the size of a Patek should be bigger. I think your point on watch size is one i wouldn't agree with.
Patek do offer something to the vintage collector that few, if any, manufacturers do, and that is the archive records as well as the fact that if they don't have a specific part for a 70 year old watch that you send for service, then they will make that part. In this world of super-complications, I do wonder where many of today's buyers of watches will be left when they send their watch for service only to be told...err...we don't make those parts any more. For patek....that will never happen. For Rolex, it is already the case. For the independents....good luck with that. So yes, Patek offers something quite special there.
Provenance is another point you mention. I think this is the same point made by Marcello....history. When a watch has a proven (and sexy) history, then yes it makes a big difference to its desirability. When that history is attached to something like exploratory diving, military action or suchlike, then yes, its easy to see why it might gather some desirability momentum. Now, i know we discussed this issue a few years ago when comparing Longines and Rolex. I still hold to my original view....Rolex offers more sexy history than any other manufacturer. Sure, there are some Breguets with stories....and Longines..... and Blancpain..... but which offers the most intricate history, provable history and breadth of scope? Rolex.
Now, I am not cornering myself into arguing (as others have done) that Rolex is now the new king of the jungle. I don't believe it is. I believe vintage Patek is still king.... and I believe it will remain king. Patek gained its reputation not by producing watches that were used by the SAS, but by making watches that had the finest most extraordinary movements and finishing... that is what drove Patek. Excellence of watch-making. Now, in my view, that excellence was something that pervaded from the 1930s right the way through to the 1960s. Since then, others have bridged the gap.
I am rambling.....
....bottom line is I think provenance/history is a key factor....but its how that history is perceived and admired by a particular period of time that makes for the so-called sweet-spot. Right now, Rolex is in the ascendancy for a number of reasons. But King?
No....
A very well said general report...
I wasn't present at the auction, but I was following it on the web.
Thank you for your analysis and keen description of the various groups of lots. I find that I am generally in complete agreement with your sentiments.
Condition is incredibly important. Rarity too. There were some shockingly expensive pieces. Shocking.
Thank you for the recap and sharing your impressions, straight off the sales floor.