CR
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Regarding the "reasonable expectation of clear title" concept under the UCC...
If a modern, high-end watch is being sold without box or papers, and if a simple internet search of the limited edition or serial number of that watch immediately would have revealed its stolen status, and if a purchaser of said watch (dealer or private individual buying from a dealer) fails to do such a simple search, then is the purchaser deemed to have "reasonable expectation of clear title"? I would imagine this is a gray area that could depend upon factors such as the level of sophistication/experience of the purchase (e.g., seasoned collector or a one-time buyer who has no knowledge of watches and is just looking for a gift for a relative).
Antiquorum and stolen watches: Langematik Anniversary Nr 185 / 500.
I am posting this story so that watch enthusiasts and all others may learn from my recent, sad experience. On the 25th of October, 2015, Antiquorum auctioned several watches in Hong Kong. Among them was a watch that was stolen from me on the 18th of Janua...
WOW, I'm very sorry my friend
Unfortunately, similar things happening here in Sweden and it does not seem like proffessional traders need to check the origin of things anymore. It has become a frightening development in line with the lucrative second hand market. I really hope you get...
It's a tricky situation
but someone have to be responsible at the company. Maybe Switzerland is easier to communicate with.
In America, You Can Get..
... Your ass locked up for accepting and/or selling stolen property. This is nothing short of criminal behavior on the part of Antiquorum! We will take to the social media airwaves with this story. The response must be severe and unrelenting!
Really!
It's a very serious problem here and the authorities do not like it one bit. To be sure, Antiquorum has probably broken several U.S. laws related to the acceptance and sale of stolen properly. Like I said, the social media response must be severe and unre...
Very sad news. I expect you could get the name of the consignor and have some possibilities
to get your beloved watch back with Police Authorities collaboration. Good luck Nicolas, Patrickh
I am so sorry to hear that!
But would that now not require Aniquorum to hand over the details of the cosignor on police request?
Hey Antiquorum: SCREW YOU.
I hope prospective buyers will find this story on google or elsewhere and avoid working with your company. You try to sell stolen property and then do not assist in returning it to the rightful owner?? HORRIBLE. Nicolas, so sorry you have to relive the si...
Hey Michael C - You Are SPOT ON. Please Keep Up The...
... Social Media Pressure. Antiquorum will pay a hefty price for their obviously criminal behavior. In the end, I believe the answer to what happened to our dear Amanico's property lies with the consignor Antiquorum is protecting. I feel it in my gut. And...
Sadly not the first time I heard about this...
This upsets me so much to hear this. And incredulously, I've heard this story from another Purist! The people at Antiquorum really are near criminals. They support criminal activity because they didn't want to ruin the relationship with the consignor. The...
The exact thing has happened in the past...
Another Purist also had a stolen watch, saw it on Antiquorum, informed Antiquorum, and the watch was returned to the consignor. Just so upsetting.
Attention watch thieves: "Send us your stolen watches and we will sell/auction them for you RISK-FREE!"...
The auction house is sending this message. If the stolen watch is successfully auctioned, then (a) the thief receives his money and (b) his identity remains secret. If the auction is interrupted for any reason -- for example, if the watch is discovered to...
That is why, in France, the crime of receiving stolen goods is more severely punished than the theft itself.
Because receiving stolen goods encourages theft. I totally agree with your analyze, CR. Most of the Criminal Judges, too. Best, Nicolas
Ufortunately, I see this behaviour in business all the time
We do not live in a world that values "doing the right thing" only a world where we look to minimize our own exposure. The Antiquorum lawyers do not care about you, the Consignor, or the watch. Their sole concern is the welfare of their employer. I am sur...
Thanks for your input, NickO. Some observations and thoughts. They would have fun if the consignor sued them. He would have to come with stronger evidences than those I have.
Which is just impossible, as I am the victim, here, and I hate to write that. 2/ Admitting that they sometimes receive stolen goods is a fact. The evidence is in the facts I put together. But reacting in an honorable way is much more rewarding for them, a...
Very sorry to hear this!
Nicolas, going through all this for a second time is a real torture! Unfortunately the laws applicable in such cases differ considerably from country to country. And I remember a former owner of a Ferrari Testarossa who could not re-claim his car because ...
It is partially in the hands of Antiquorum and in those of the " consignor " who now knows
That this watch comes from a huge ( to say the least ) burglary, which was not covered by the insurance... I couldn't wear such a watch anymore, knowing that. Best, Nicolas
very sad... double punishment for you
this business goes the wrong way as it is supposed to be "all about trust" i guess you ran an eye and general terms and condition of Antiquorum on HK GTC you can find "Antiquorum warrants that, upon the consummation of the sale of any lot under the terms ...
An incredible story...
The only way to explain the action of Antiquorum is that the Consignor had a receipt of his purchase. But it is difficult to claim that he would have been Bona Fide. A sad story and I'm very sorry for you. Let's hope this ends well. Best, Kari
Then, the consignor is legitimately in his right to ask a full refund from his seller.
But he cannot compete with me in the ground of ownership... Best, Nicolas
They just have really thick skin. There's no public spokesperson for the auction house...
Nobody who takes responsibility, no public figure. Nobody's reputation gets tarnished for doing a bad job, since it's a "team effort." It's just awful!
There's a large amount of neavou riche!
Some people in the auction house industry call them "fresh meat." These new-to-art or new-to-watches people support the auction houses with a blind faithfulness, that really isn't justified.
Shameful behaviour by Antiquorum...
what a painful experience Nico. As noted, their customer base resides in places like this forum and their credibility is lost when we hear horror stories like these. I hope there is some leads through further police action that can happen for you given th...
I guess not
Otherwise he/she/it would have done so by now.... The only thing is for sure: the current holder (not owner) knows without any doubt he/she/it has a stolen good in their hands/safe. Un sellable Personal note to you Nico: this sucks!! I can imagine the ang...
Absolutely unacceptable!
This is completely disgraceful, shameful and unprofessional from Antiquorum Can hardly believe such conduct from world known auction house As you know better than me you have many points for legal actions against them question is if you have time and mone...
Nicolas I am sorry to hear about the theft...
my take on the situation is as follows. Hong Kong is not a jungle and I am sure Antiquorum contacted the local sheriff's department before returning it to the seller. I am sure it is only a matter of time before you receive your Lange back. All the best E...
Let's keep fingers crossed, but they never said nor showed me that they...
Sent the watch bak to the consignor at the demand of the sheriff... Best, and thanks for your feedback, my friend. Nicolas
Have you posted about these newest events on TimeZone?
I would be glad to if you are not a member there.
Yes, Timezone is a commercial forum
That accepts money from different site Sponsors (ADs) and other institutions associated with the watch industry. if you make a post criticizing one of their business partners, it will be deleted. As Nicolas pointed out, I believe Timezone has a relationsh...
I awoke this morning to an email from CR asking where I posted. It was in the Lange Forum.
I see the post is gone. I think it was still up around 10PM NYC time last night. I also did not know until now that Antiquorum OWNS TZ.
Maybe all Purists that can post on TZ should bombard the Forum with entries about this.
I wouldn't care if I got banned-this was my first post there in 2015.
I don't want to embarrass my friends at TZ. They already gave you an answer with deleting
Your post. Best, NicolaS
Agreed.
Nicolas, maybe you have already stated this somewhere within this massive thread: did you report the theft to Lange back in 2011? Or any time since up to this past summer? I think you know where I'm going with this. If a "reputable" auction house was pres...
I reread your original post and you state you informed Lange that the watch was stolen.
I believe your position is strengthened vis a vis Antiquorum: they are presented with an expensive, MODERN watch, with no box or papers; and they did nothing to verify ownership.
What a story, and sorry for your loss...
maybe if it shows up again we can collectively bid it, buy it and request to meet, chat with the mysterious "owner", see if there are any more interesting pieces he/she "collects". Can you inform all other auction houses to let them know? Rgds Raymond
Which horror mess
If the sender is honest, he will contact you and so the investigators will can perhaps the track. Whith you, nino
It is a real scandal ...
I do hope you will recover your watch Nicolas I think we cannot trust auctionners ...I have read lot of problems with fakes , watches serviced but out of order and so on...experts selling through auctionners... Cheers Christian
I feel your pain Nico
And those AQ auctioneers are totally without conscience nor scruples. I made a little picture in support of you , paraphrasing one of my favourite comedians, Russell Peters. Shame on you Antiquorum! This message has been edited by NT931 on 2015-12-26 20:4...
I had a single experience with AQ (their HK & NY branches)
... and it wasn't fun either. Almost got hit by some extra charges which they didn't mention, and had lackadaisical customer support when I emailed. To top it all off, they Fedexed to the WRONG address. I would almost have lost the watch if not for an hon...
Well said Luis!
The thread you started over at WUS has also garnered several new AQ horror stories. If we hyperlink all the horror stories across different watch fora, hopefully potential AQ customers will see these stories and walk away.
I too have a negative experience with AQ as a buyer(still ongoing)
Just signed up to share my own story here. Similar experience here, basically, they're just being unenthusiastic and has always been showing a lack of interest in customer support when it comes to dealing with the mess they created. Coming from my experie...
Exactement!
Those bastardos had a chance to show the class we all believed they had by returning your property. And yet, they chose another path. Shameful. - Scott
I already asked ..
.. if by any coincidence they had a Langematik for sale ... and posted your complete thread in their 'anouncements' .. somebody else did so as well. Have you googled Antiquorum / payments / problems ? Heard that before, but they even wait months and month...
Yes ... but ...
... if the buyer doesn't pay within let's say 2 weeks (if i bid on something i'll make sure i have the cash ready) .... they cancel the deal and send the watch back to the owner ... hmmm, the rightful owner ;-) . I've read about people (and heard from a U...
Nico- Sorry to hear this sad story.
You are such a gentleman that it pains me that you had your watches stolen, and now this. If I may add some perspective from U.S. law, I am sorry to say that there are scenarios under which the "consignor" could have good title to the watch, even though i...
It is the same system in France. Recel ( possession of stolen goods ) depends on some criterias
Which are basically the same than those you mentioned, ie the seller ( professional, or not professional ) and the price. I had zero informations on these criterions from Antiquorum in their different emails and answers, not the least justification. So, a...
Agreed.
Proving BFP status is not easy and the seller bears the burden of proof. Also, if the seller did buy from a dealer, state law usually has strict requirements which dealers must abide by to ensure they are not selling stolen goods. If the dealer fails to d...
Regarding the "reasonable expectation of clear title" concept under the UCC...
If a modern, high-end watch is being sold without box or papers, and if a simple internet search of the limited edition or serial number of that watch immediately would have revealed its stolen status, and if a purchaser of said watch (dealer or private i...
You posted your census on the 22 May 2015, and clearly announced that the Nr 28 and 185 are stolen. So, Antiquorum could have known that, indeed.
As for the consignor, I would be interested in knowing when he bought it, as you can imagine... Best, Nicolas
And they could have, and should have, contacted Lange, which company was armed with a claim of theft from 2011.
I think this wins the argument for Nico. Simple due diligence.
The outcome of the dealing with this auction house is painful...
Truly sorry, my friend. Best Blomman
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