Cozmopak
2749
Many consider Pratt a more accomplished watchmaker than Daniels
But the reason that Pratt hasn’t achieved the same level of recognition, I think, is that he never created a wristwatch with his own movement within his lifetime. Plenty of pocket watches though.
His work at UJ was largely using Frederic Piguet movements, and while he was designing the detente escapement that would later be incorporated into their watches, he never saw this endeavor to its completion.
The reference 2 that you mention uses a Piguet movement, even though it is undoubtedly a beautiful watch.
Roger Smith
I’m considering placing my name on the list for one of Rogers’ watches, specifically for the series 2. The wait now is many years. And the price is very significant, but these aren’t getting cheaper. I’d like to canvas the group and hear some opinions. I ...
A Smith watch is 'the one that got away' for me...
...but only because, even thought they were not too expensive in the early days, I was also really poor back then. And now they are just too much money for me. My only nitpick is they seem far too thick for what I consider a dress watch. If you love it an...
Yes, they are thick watches
But I like thicker watches. They feel more permanent and three-dimensional. So that is not one of my concerns.
It’s really a sh*t load of money……….
If money isn’t a concern I say go for it. But I can think of several ways to that spend that sum. Best Gatsby
Yes, it really is
However, the direct price from the workshop is still significantly lower than preowned secondary prices
So this is what I truly think
I would analyze the question as such: 1. Firstly, where does the RWS fit in the collection ? Is this the end ? 2. Secondly. What other high-end pieces are you chasing ? In comparison to the RWS, which would you rather have to maximize your own utility and...
It’s a lot of money
And requires considered thought. It would knock me out of the game for five years
If you can put your name on the list i would definitely do it my friend .
To have a RwS in your collection is a dream come true. Such a amazing grail and superb masterpiece
If it calls out to be bought...
Then do it. As was pointed out, there are other watches to he had for that amount.
Value a Smith watch based on its own merits, not because of Smith's connection to Daniels -- that's my opinion.
Personally, I think I would get more satisfaction from looking at a Daniels in a museum than from owning a Smith.
That’s the argument I hear most often and one that I take to heart
Would Smith command as much attention without his association to Daniels? Probably not. But is that association significant enough to command as much respect and attention as he is currently?
All watchmakers learn their craft from someone. It's absolutely appropriate to consider the teacher when evaluating the maker. As such, if the teacher is/was a top-tier watchmaker...
...then the student, assuming they learned well, has the potential of being equal to their teacher, at least technically. In this case, although I'd prefer a Daniels over a Smith purely from a historical standpoint, I don't believe it diminishes the value...
I've heard people discussing how many generations a pianist was removed . . .
. . . from studying under Franz Liszt. Earl Wild was only two generations removed. I'm pretty sure there's no one left who's only two generations removed. But there's still reverence for Liszt's lineage. If I were a watchmaker, I'd be honored to be Smith'...
But Daniels is a part of the Roger Smith story. And dare I say, vice versa. And it’s a cool relationship too. Not sure there’s a mentor mentee story like that of Daniels-Smith..
So why deny that from the equation? Even if I had the money for something like a Greubel Forsey, I’d go Roger Smith. The heart wants what the heart wants.
Did you get a sense he was remarking on the functioning of the watch?
Or just that a myriad of "flaws" appeared when looking via a loupe or decent set of eyes?
Hello Cosomopak
I recently bought a RWS series 2 used and have ordered a series 4 from Mr. Smith so I am a fan. Opposite most decisions in my life, value has less to do with my passion for RWS than the unique experience of owning something really, really special and a pa...
Thank you, Jim.
I really appreciate your insights. Your series 2 is stunning, and so close to the one that I would want for myself
Thanks Jim, it's nice to have your perspective, however,
I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss the views of members of our community as "jealousy" simply because they are different than your own. That's not respectful, nor does it really fit anyone's post here, unless you'd care to be more specific. I think...
HI Spangles thanks for your comments, dully noted
I may have bee too strong when I said “Jealously” however I also wrote “no offense intended to anyone”. I certainly was not being accusatory to anyone but stating something I believe is part of life even if we don’t like to admit it…Hopefully the author o...
I’m clueless so take it with a grain of salt 😅
The look of RWS just doesn’t appeal to me…sorry I know there is a lot of exquisite work inside and some will say “only the owner know” or “if you know, you know”. I see Breguet having similar looks and textures. I think if you’re looking for the next PD, ...
Totally fair opinion.
The fear that a watch won’t be able to be serviced if a brand or watchmaker ceases to exist, however, is a fear that I don’t share, although it is commonly cited. Mechanical watches are only increasing in popularity, and there will always be someone capab...
Yes it can be fixed, no doubt…
But by who would you feel comfortable with handling your RWS to…PD, GF, RG, KV, FPJ personally or any watchmaker?
Very good conundrum to consider hypothetically
But I can guarantee you that there are skilled artisans who will be available to service these pieces if need be for the right price
I'd only pass if there was another watch I could think of enjoying more.
That being said, I'm sure a Series 2 will always be considered one of the pinnacle time-only watches. As you mentioned, I don't see acquiring one ever getting any easier. My vote is to get on the list!
I've certainly pondered
the ultimate current independent expression for a time-only watch. For me, it comes down to KV and/or RS.
Definitely order it!
But, before doing so, consider the width of the watch in terms of wearability. It's not going under a shirt sleeve! Maybe wear around a modern Omega chrono to practice! Clearly, not a problem unless it's not well considered and then it may be a problem. I...
Oh, one other thing:
Roger doesn't use a Breguet overcoil on his hairsprings for best isochronism. I have spoken with Brandon1 about it and we can't figure out why, given concern for thickness clearly isn't the issue. It's something missing on a few high-end watches and watch...
Yes, we’ve had this conversation before regarding the overcoil in Smith’s watches
This was Roger’s response in 2007, taken from a Timezone article: "It is my goal to eventually fit an overcoil hairspring to all the Series 2 watches if it proves to be the best solution, but we are still monitoring the performance of the watches and we w...
it is beautiful piece if its your love of your life
IMHO for the amount of money and waiting time, you can have much more option and fun.
You need to ask yourself
what are your priorities when buying a high end watch. For me if I had to rate my top five, it would be beauty of the dial, size (I have a small wrist so the case diameter and the lug length are crucial),quality of the finish (case, dial and movement), re...
My two dogecoin on this matter below.
I don’t have the purchasing power of some on this forum. That doesn’t mean I forego historical significance or provenance when I rummage around for nice watches. On the contrary, I couple my interest in both qualities with a search for value. Lo and behol...
Excellent post.
Thank you for sharing. I’m also a huge fan of the Pratt era UJS watches, and on more than one occasion almost acquired one. They are certainly being discovered by the general collector community. I think that a lot of the value of the Smith watch is its r...
Very well explained.
I also recently acquired an UJ. A ref. 2 from the early 90's. Simply the most beautiful dial, hands and case. There is just something "fine" and elaborate in these pieces that current UJ pieces don't have. I consider Derek a notch above Daniels in terms o...
Many consider Pratt a more accomplished watchmaker than Daniels
But the reason that Pratt hasn’t achieved the same level of recognition, I think, is that he never created a wristwatch with his own movement within his lifetime. Plenty of pocket watches though. His work at UJ was largely using Frederic Piguet movements,...
Yes, I think so too.
He passed away too soon. His accomplishments with the H4, his double wheel remontoire tourbillion and his work together with Peter Baumberger are amazing, but not much made under his name, so largely incognito in the wider watch population. It is interest...
There’s no doubt that I would jump at the opportunity to acquire a reference 2. Such lovely watches
And yes, I’ve read about Pratts contributions toward the coaxial escapement. And that Daniels never properly acknowledged that contribution
Well said, Watchcph
When we consider the parties who have stepped in to complete Derek's work - Kari Voutilainen, Frodsham and Josh Shapiro through the 'Pratt Watch' project - it's clear that his work is held in the highest regard by those in the know (I haven't read the new...
You would clearly buy a piece of history...
As stated by others, seeing how many watches are made per year, you would obviously buy a piece of history! Which is an achievement in itself. I find it remarkable that Roger Smith and a very few others make everything in house and nearly all by hand! To ...
I think there has been enough said by many members already. Bottom line for me is personal preference. Although some of us can easily afford to purchase a RWS piece, it comes down to what we see ourselves wearing and if it appeals to us emotionally...
Price aside, RWS really makes some unbelievable pieces but exclusively does not always mean better or worse. Let us know what you decide. Don't think you could go wrong with any choice in the range from any of the top Indies 😉👍
Personally the aesthetics front and back do not appeal to me
I'm also not clear what innovations and history Roger has created. Compared to the likes of FPJ for exaple (granted not "hand made"), I derive less aesthetic value and historical signficance from RS, so for me I would not buy it. But then again, that is d...
Cozopak, unfortunately your timing couldn’t have been any worse. Or, perhaps this helps your decision. Today, RWS shared he is no longer taking any new orders.
He shared that recently he has seen unprecedented interest in his work and continuing to take orders would result in an ever-lengthening waiting list. So, he has decided to cease taking new orders for the foreseeable future and focus on his existing clien...
Thanks Obeezy,
But I was able to sneak in as I have been communicating with Caroline for a few months.
Got an email from Roger Smith this morning
He is no longer taking orders, he does not want to long a waiting list and wants to focus on his improvements in Horology…Jim
Yes, I heard this secondhand from several collectors
Kind of lit a fire under my butt, and I managed to sneak in!
Yah just got that email too.. so for those who have received it, means our place on the waiting list still valid?
Last time I emailed to Caroline, she said about 5 years wait. Still the case?
You should be good
When I asked Carloine about 8 months ago she told me 3 years, not sure that is accurate or how this change might affect the delivery but it’s all I know…Jim
Yes
If your name is on the list and you paid the deposit (5k pounds), you will have the opportunity to receive a watch…eventually. But no more names are being added to the list
Received mail as well
Only watches in production are being produced. Everyone that is on waiting list (without having paid a deposit), will have to wait a long time
I went through the exact decision making process in 2016/7 and as much as I liked RWS work I went KV as I felt
it gave me a bit more flex on the customization. I am also not a huge fan of the pocket watch looking movement. Economically RWS is the way to go as with KV you die....but the bespoke journey is a wonderful experience
Selling a Voutilainen?
Not where I live. These watches retain their value extremely well
Just to add about Roger Smith
I received an email from this morning telling me he opened my watch and is replacing my escapement wheel with his Newley upgrade version along with the lever which has benefitted its efficiency. In addition the watch will be completely serviced and back t...