Independents

I am curious what you guys here think or is there a general consensus what are your top 5 "Independent" brands? By top notch, I mean widely recognized and highly regarded among the independent watch collectors community, superb ( and sometimes out of this... 

Top 5 existing brands. Dufour is retired.

I would put Journe higher. His approach is different than the others in that he values the movement engineering quite highly relative to some that value finishing to the extreme. That is not to say that is "right or wrong" but that is his approach--and wh... 

I appreciate his innovation and while the finishing may not be as exquisite as some of the others it is still beautiful. It’s the combination of technical achievement and excellent finishing that impress me. With that said all the names mentioned are terr... 

-Creative watchmaking genius makes all decisions -Small enough for the above -Yet large enough for boutiques around the world, service centers, has own watchmaking school and... -Big enough to have real vertical integration! FPJ doesn't contract out. This... 

However, FPJ design somehow never sing to me. Just personal taste really.

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And any ranking would be highly subjective depending on what you choose to prioritize. That being said, I think there's a consensus that the current "holy trinity" of traditional watchmaking consists of Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilainen, and Roger Smith. ... 

To me, if Journe is in the top 5, I could make a valid argument to include Voutilainen. Although, I like Rexhep I think he needs to produce a bit more; however, I am confident he will take his place in the top 5 in due time. Just my thoughts!

But Voutilainen doesn't make their own movements or parts? I only heard they are famous for dials.

aside from ruby and hairspring. Also, he doesn't make his own case despite being able to, stating that his case maker is much better than he is in making cases (they make some of the best cases for chiming timepieces). This was the information I got from ... 

In your definition of "top notch" I think you should be thinking about "and or" versus solely "and" in many cases as while it could be argued that some indies bring to the table "superb finishing" and "a reputation for remarkable timepieces" some clearly ... 

Obviously, the top three are Bach, Miyan Tansen, and Vilayat Khan, but after that it gets tricky...

Sarpaneva for his crazy cool aesthetic Habring2 for their sensibilities and creativity Prescher for his wizardry and beautiful design Asaoka for his ingenuity Journe as an overall package

I have trouble settling on five, to be honest. It becomes an easier question if resale value is your objective proxy for overall brand strength. Dufour, Voutilainen, Journe and (Roger) Smith are sure to show up as consensus picks. Journe isn’t touching Du... 

Journe, Gautier, Greubel all have silent commercial partners (AP and Chanel) - so how “truly independent” are they. For me, truly independent means there isn’t anyone else to pick up the tab or prop you up in case of low sales or negative revenues in any ... 

Curious how you know those on your list don't have behind the scenes investors that have a stake in the business in exchange for helping them finance operations?

I can only say, I have not discovered this to be the case and No one in our Purists community has mentioned those indies having commercial investors. Most indies do paid side consulting or design work for big companies to supplement their income (eg Paul ... 

No judgement hear whether it is good or bad. But given an investment in an independent by anyone may be partly motivated by the cache of said independent there is incentive to keep it under wraps. In fact, a wise thing to do would he to have a non-disclos... 

So, cross most of the names off your list! I'm glad you mentioned Ochs und Junior, though, they deserve to be in the conversation about independents.

Interesting point. But true vertical integration is very rare (if not impossible) for an indie company. Do you mean, vertical integration where EVERYTHING from straps, screws, crystals and movements is done in house? I think that would only leave seiko an... 

Yes, that is what I mean, as long as we don't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. F.P.Journe is close to vertical integration, making movement plates, dials, cases, etc, themeselves. Jewels, hairsprings, and sapphire casebacks, okay maybe not. ... 

I did post a similar thread a few years back which has now attracted almost 17,000 views due to its interesting topic My top 5 then after a revision was: Kari Voutilainen, RW Smith, Romain Gauthier, Gronefeld and Philip Dufour As Mr Dufour hardly produces... 

Ditto 😀

Budapest And went to a very small independent... and you saw him at work, saw his tools, talked with him and his wife and ofcourse inspected his watches, you will realise Aaron Becsei (Bexei) should be in this top 5 Very, VERY small but so amazing

He is such a nice gentleman: modest and approachable but, above all, quiet. That is his biggest 'failing', little ego, no need to prove himself, just massive talent. His few watches are special, each one unique in some way. A true enthusiasts secret!! ...  

Amazing work.

Kari Voutilainen, Vianney Halter In addition to the other ones that have been already mentioned Roger Smith...

PP & Rolex are independent too ;-) i think you miss Kari, Laurent Ferrier. Best, mahesh.,

But they are still large watch brands that churns out tens of thousands ( in Rolex case, nearly a million ) watches a year.

they produce watches they think is the correct one, they don't listen/respond to market needs in general. Rolex & PP does it - they always launch something that leaves the market to look forward to 'what next' Best, mahesh.,

Your five brands are for sure one of the best but like others mentioned Kari V , Vianney H , H Moser , DeBethune , Urwerk , MB&F , Roger W S. And some more are amazing brands too , its all what you like and what your feeling is with a brand imho

Look at their numerous inventions, patents and innovations and prestigious awards. Not a single other watchmaker has reached this level. Most are playing the card of finishing techniques or dials. GF is different in all aspects and for me the number ONE o... 

But, they are not indie 😀 They are trailblazers, industry leaders, horological wizards, cutting edge and important BUT at least 20% of their company is owned by AP. So, i don’t think they quite qualify as indie. But they are indisputably awesome!

FPJ has also sold 20% of his stock to Chanel . Still a indie brand imho . 20% isnt going to give you the power of the company to tell them which way to go i think . its Just a financial injection imo and a collab for there knowledge and knowhow

But as soon as you have an investor or financial partner (1% or 20%), they get a say in how you run, what products you develop, etc. Even if they are a silent partner, they are “invested” in your success and will not look kindly to failure. GF and FPJ are... 

This is a good article to understand better: thejourneguy.com And this one: thejourneguy.com So, you see it is quite different than you might expect!

Interesting. (For the prices they command, you’d think someone would have stuck up for them by now)

After channel buying a stake? I know it’s a minority

Chanel also bought a stake in Romain Gauthier. Frankly, I don't like these fashion brands having any association in Haute Horology. Kinds of cheapens it.

You'll find it's not what you think. In fact, Chanel is strengthening the independence of FPJ. Further, from the very beginning, FPJ has had silent investors, something that is no secret. This move assures independence, nothing less. This is a good articl... 

in his focus on truly handmade independent watches he is right up there with Dufour and Smith although his style and focus with regard to finishing is of course very different. But he certainly hits my sweet spot ... And Vianney Halter, although I have ne...  

1. Roger W. Smith 2. Bexei 3. Gronefeld 4. Romain Gauthier 5. Ochs und Junior.

Vincent Calabrese is for me the first . He is a true genius .

Always loved his pieces

NT

We are very fortunate to have so many amazing independent watchmakers to choose from.

NT

For me, independent watchmakers as much as independent brand is important. And at a time in their careers when they "benched" their own work, which I suspect the names on the doors of many of the independent brands don't actually do anymore themselves. Th...  

To have met the watchmaker of your watch is a extra bonus for me . It gives an extra dimension and feeling to your watch Imho .

Guys opinion needed Been looking into independent for a few months, and recently met a top collector in person. He made some suggestions so I have narrowed down my list (he was telling me to start from GPHG list) 1. Urban Jurgensen - P8 movement 2. kari v... 

would shoes the Kati for quality , craftsmanship, esthetic and the man. Going off the ranch a bit look at Roger Smith as another true independent who follows George Daniels’ principles of everything possible made in-house. Note that Dufour used an off the... 

Yes I like Roger Smith 3 hands with power reserve too! Is it possible to customise it as I prefer breguet numerals which is something I don’t have in my collection.