Mark in Paris
[Purist]
10488
Only five is tough, especially when Indies are concerned :)
I would think that, even more than with traditional watchmakers, it depends on the watch itself. For instance I won't put MB&F in the 5 but I would put the Legacy Machine Perpetual in the top most interesting Independent watches today.
So I would take Voutilainen for sure.
It seems that R. Smith is interesting though I never saw one.
I would put P. Dufour for the trend he initiated in watchmaking but not for the watches necessarily (btw I think KV does the same level of finishing and a little more in terms of pieces worked in the caliber imho).
I like many of them like L. Ballouard for his talent in bringing new technical displays and aesthetical designs.
The Gronefeld brothers are very talented watchmakers, though I'm not keen on the aesthetics, simple matter of subjective taste here for me.
Greubel Forsey is fantastic, in terms of finishing, or technical mastery and development. They are now as you said held by a group for 20% but they are still working as they were and have the independant spirit in terms of talent imho.
Urwerk has done a very nice thing with their satellites (especially considering they have to withstand everyday life's shocks) but would not put them in the top5.
One other I think is part from this: Richard Mille. Not the same image than the usual indies, so that could be eliminatory but they have the skill technically and in terms of "modern" finishing as they are absolutely flawless, he entered the market alone in 2001 with something he loved (car racing) and took a lot of risks to develop something he made no compromise about, they are incredibly comfortable (not that it is really watchmaking related but it is something watchmakers forget too much taking into account I think).
So, if I had to choose for myself only (and not historical significance etc...) I would say (not in that order necessarily, except KV):
- Voutilainen: spirit, technical developement, finishing;
- Greubel Forsey: idem values than above;
- Ballouard: huge talent and creativity in technical development and aesthetical design, he is small but has 100% the Independent spirit, in every way;
- Gronefeld: talented in technical design and complication choices.
- I use a joker: DeBethune, R.Jerome, Urwerk, MB&F, Ph.Dufour, I can't not mention FPJ though I have a few objections against it.
...and in fact, I realize while typing this answer that it is not possible for me to give a top 5 ranking for indies without mentionning on what level we select them. Indeed they are so many going in different ways and still being very valuable indies (especially if we start considering the budgets...).
If one wonders where to go, he must study everyone of them and find the right watch/budget/finishing level/technical complication and originality etc...
Do you have something in mind as a new purchase? 
Cheers, Mark
The top five!!
We all have our favourite independents and our own views on who are the best among them but this is my top five which I am sure will not necessarily be agreed upon by everyone. I have decided to attach some photos to highlight why I think these independen...
Two of my Grail watches are there. The RG Logical One (on top of my wish list) and the FP Journe Chronometre Bleu (not so far)
You mentioned Laurent Ferrier and I\'m fully agree with you. From my side, the Galet micro-rotor in white gold grey or blue dial is a dream. I would add the MB&F Legacy Machine 101 and the Robin\'s Moser with its funky blue dial. Thank you Santa for this ...
Thanks Alkiro!
I was actually referring to the top 5 independents rather than the top 5 watches by independents and I randomly chose 5 watches from their respective collections. Coincidentally two of them are on your wish list
Fully understand you
But, I would be really curious to know the distribution of the capital of these "independent" firms. For instance, Laurent Ferrier is not the main shareholder of the company which has his name (several private investors behind). I think it is the same sit...
I agree Alkiro :-)
They have beautiful finishing and movements and are amazingly creative.
If we want to find a "true" independent brand whose 100% of the capital is own by its founder and who is, at the same time, master watchmaker who makes his own watches... I think we can look for a long time ;-)
I would be curious to know the list (we could be surprised). Few attempts: Ludovic Ballouard, KV, Romain Gauthier? Best wishes Alkiro
That's easy :-)
Roger Smith, Philip Dufour and Kari Voutilainen as well as being in my top 5 (and probably my Top 3 too ) are truly independent. Roger and Philip practically make their own watches with minimal assistance.
I tend to agree with you :-)
The first three seem to be in a league of their own in terms of movement, finishing, hand made content and exclusitivity. This might also explain why they also tend to be better investments than the other independents! I always believe that watch collecto...
+ Vianney Halter, Paul Gerber, Keyton Myrick, McGonigle Bros , no?
I thought it was just them behind his eponymous brands (money wise)
Oh no, not at all.
I was referring to a conversation I had with Alkiro... I am sorry if I gave off that impression.
Phew!
I thought I had offended you I half expected your reply to be 'let our lawyers speak!'
Tough question.
KV, Dufour, van der Klaauw, Gauthier, and the fifth would be a rotating position. That\'s off the top of my head.
I don't think Van Der Klaauw is independent anymore.
I do believe gd is now a "consultant" in his eponymous brand. They still make great watches though.
Lets not forget...
Greubel Forsey, master of contemporary finishing! Laurent Ferrier would also be in my dreamlist. Even on their basic micro rotor, it exhibits finishing youd find on say a tourbillon piece. Also, unique escapement mechanisms. Then not to forget, Gronefeld ...
I was waiting for someone to say that! :-)
I have been informed in a separate post that Gruebel Forsey does not qualify as an independent as 20% of the company is now owned by the Richemont group!!
For me no independent list is complete without
Vianney Halter and De Bethune Nice choices anyway Cheers D
Top 5 Horological Artists?....
but I love all art, so difficult....impossible! In no particular order Jean Baptiste Viot Vianney Halter Ressence Paul Gerber Eva Leube Pita Ludovic Ballouard C.Klings Hajime Asaoka Mcgonigle Svend Andersen Christiaan Van Der Klaauw FP Journe Kari Voutila...
LoooL but they all are so pretty, how is possible to choose just 5...
All are special and unique and exciting )) But if you had a gun to my head I would say and in no order: Vianney Halter Ressence C.Klings Urban Jurgensen Sonner FP Journe
Thank you Salman! :-)
And I was just about to pull the trigger!! Great choices although I must confess I am not familiar with C.Klings! I learn something new Imagine this is the predicament the judges of the GPHG face annually during the award ceremony and for them it is a lot...
Christiaan Van Der Klaauw I think would not qualify...
the man retired, the company still exists. There is a discussion within AHCI whether he still qualifies as a member. I am very glad you mentioned Paul Gerber, for me he is definitely on the list. Best, Magnus
Funny you mention Eva Leube, Salmaan
I haven\'t heard about her for a while (and she is based on the same country I am in) Is she still in the game?
I would hope so...
her story and creations are wonderful, would it be possible to give her call and ask how she is? S
Slowly but surely the list becomes more and more complete but you can ad Andreas Strehler!
Andreas makes simply crazy watches among which "The Sauterelle à Lune Perpétuelle" (the most precise phase of the moon indication ever built in a wristwatch. It made it into the Guinness Book of Records. It is also the most precise phase of the moon by so...
Thanks Mike!
Andreas is without doubt a living genius and could easily walk into anyone's top 5. He is extremely low profile but his work is near unparalleled.
Slightly different for me
Voutilainen, de Bethune, Journe, Strehler, Halter, Smith, Greubel Forsey I guess Dufour makes also the cut, but is he still active today? I do not feel very concerned by his Grande Sonnerie(s) and the 9 Duality that he produced. There is of course the Sim...
That's close enough Z! :-)
Apparently as Gruebel Forsey are now 20% owned by the Richemont Group, they are not quite independent any longer. But Strehler is an engineering marvel and De Bethune does create from outside the conventional box. I think it is quite interesting that the ...
You too Sham are aware and will be pleased...
You can start by saving the dates June 16th and 17th full days ; I'll revert soon... Best, Mike
I'm very happy about your list my friend...
Because it will match quite well with our next year project... The idea is to make 2 shots with 1 stone, I'm working on it and both are ok. I need to finalize few details and will be able to start opening the list shortly... Call me anytime you want this ...
Hi Mike
As you know we are making good progress… dB, KV & VH Planning on catching up with dB & KV live in January.
KV and VH already booked and ok...
dB in your hands but... there might be an addition tonthe program with Romain Gauthier... stay tuned Very promising program... In the mean time, Merry X'mas to you and yours
Only five is tough, especially when Indies are concerned :)
I would think that, even more than with traditional watchmakers, it depends on the watch itself. For instance I won't put MB&F in the 5 but I would put the Legacy Machine Perpetual in the top most interesting Independent watches today. So I would take...
Mark! Mark! :-)
As usual, your reply is extensive and elaborate! Thank you very much for your views and for pointing out the strengths of the indies you have chosen. I have noticed that not many of you have chose Romain Gauthier perhaps because he is less well known, per...
Yes, GF is fantastic
I love the Doble Tourbillon technique especially but when looking at the whole colelction, I would nearly like them all: the historic as well, the Contemporaine, the Invention pieces etc... The fairs season is always difficult to deal with indeed, expecti...
I agree Mark!
The finishing on GF is quite something plus the double and quadruple tourbillons are mind boggling. If only they were smaller and more accessible price wise! Yes, I know I am asking for a lot - wearabiliy, unparalleled finishing, accuracy and affordabilit...
Great post/topic
I would list in order of preference, only the ones that I would go as far as purchasing, in order of personal preference: 1. FP Journe: respect of horology in technical terms fusing innovation and tradition plus classic cases with originality achieved. Pl...
Hi Alex!
Thank you for your top 5! Or should I say Top 4!! As they are similar to mine, I would say you have excellent tastes!! Your reasons also seem very similar to my mindset
The number of independents in the industry
but I think there are a handful who are at a different level in terms of movement finishing, accuracy, creativity, degree of hand made, and exclusitivity.
My top 5 or top 6 of independents.
I would start with Kari Voutilainen, then the Groenefeld brothers, then Laurent Ferrier, then Gauthier, then Dufour. Not necessarily in this sequence, but they are the top 5 for me. I would also tend to include Andreas Strehler in the list of the top 5, b...
Great choices!
They are all among the best independents in the industry today. Roger Smith seems to be less well known than the Swiss independents but for me, he is way up there due to his ethos and the way he makes his watches.
Roger Smith
I have never seen the watches of Roger Smith live. I heard of him and saw some videos. Curious to see his watches some day live.
It does not help
that Roger hardly advertises or exhibits his watches. I guess with only an annual production of 10 watches he has a long enough waiting list and does not need to market his watches. In 2020, you may see mine if you wish when I take delivery of it!
And if you ever get the chance
do catch the DVD 'the watchmaker's apprentice' which is a film on George Daniels and Roger Smith'. Most enjoyable surprisingly and I am quite sure that you will be hooked on Roger afterwards
IMHO when picking independents I look for true independents. Out there on their own producing unique and carefully constructed (technically and artistically) watches. Their brilliance is in their creativity and passion for their craft.
In no particular order I would say Roger Smith, Thomas Prescher, Kari Voutilainen, Phillipe Dufour, Romain Gauthier. I pick them because they are out there on their own producing fantastic pieces. I do admit that Romain is not a watchmaker but he is a vis...
Hi Mitch!
I just knew that your top 5 would include Roger Smith and I must be on the right track if four out of our five choices are similar. Afterall not many are as well informed on independents as you are! On reflection, perhaps I should have swapped FP Journe f...
Smith...hands down...
...no pun intended. Dufour is neck-and-neck but I prefer the Smith \'look,\' if that makes any sense.
Thank you! :-)
And I say that quite selfishly as I had just ordered a RW Smith Series 2! I must confess that that if a Simplicity was still being sold new, I would order one too!
Great question and great thread.
Many worthy candidates mentioned above, and certainly some consensus emerges from the group. I don't have much to add, except that there is one independent master who IMHO probably deserves to be in his own group--Mr. Dufour. Twist the question a bit and ...
Definitely the most sought after!
I agree that Philip Dufour's watches are the most sought after due to the limited supply unmatched with over demand and he is without doubt one of the best independents around. However, it is difficult to say if in the years to come his watches will be as...
We all know the answer: Paul Daniels.
Philippe Dufour has been very good at building up an image, speaking like the oracle of Dephi, and a certain Amercian website have been very good at profiling him lately. When it comes to originality and their opus, quite a few independents shine more bri...
So the million dollar question is................
Which would your top five be?! And it is a pity that Paul Daniels has passed away because I did see her perform life once.
Ooops! Sooooory :-)
You have been given us your Top 5 a few posts above! Sorry, bad memory.
It is quite all right
Still not used myself to the way these threads are built upon... I feel is is a very personal question: By this I mean we are bound to relate to what and whom we know. My view and I guess others' views is/ are bound to be partial. I have met some of the w...
Hi Zed!
I guess if I had only one choice of a watchmaker I would choose to work closely with to produce a bespoke dream watch, it would be either Kari Voutilainen, Roger Smith or Philip DuFour. I believe they have the skills firstly to finish a watch beyond compa...
Dear sham1
Thank you for your message. We are completely on the same wave length. ;-) I agree with all what you write. The openness, humility and quality of the dialog is, in my opinion, very important in such a project. Not many watchmakers are willing to go along ...
Thanks Zed!
These three watchmakers have the ability to make us dream and even consider down sizing our collection to acquire one of their masterpieces. I wrote in a post a couple of months ago that I had a choice of acquiring a Patek 5270R or a RW Smith Series 2 as ...
Five choice; well difficult to choose among all these incredible people.
However my 4 is easy, Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilainen, Roger Smith and Marco Lang of Lang & Heyne obviously. But the last one is really difficult to pick between Journe, Grönefeld, Andreas Strehler or Antoine Preziuso. I guess my vote goes to Andrea...
Great choices!
Not just because we are both on the same page with DuFour, Smith and Voutilainen but I have also admired the work of Lang & Heyne for a long time. Marco not only makes beautiful movements but I like the way his movements fill up the cases of his watches h...
I need to make a change to my top 5!!!
I have just returned from the SIHH and was honestly more impressed by the independents than anything the Richemont brands had to offer. One independent in particular left me gobsmacked so my new top 5 would be Kari Voutilainen, Philip Dufour, Roger Smith,...
Only 5 names are really few:
Dufour - JDN Daniel Roth (as you could have forgotten him) - Voutilainen - Smith - Klings. I'm out of the list of 5 amazing watchmakers who have created real masterpieces like Journe, Gauthier, Ferrier, Asaoka, etc ...
Thanks Claudio!
Oh no, I did not forget Daniel Roth and 20 years ago, I used to only collect Daniel Roth watches. Unfortunately, I feel with Daniel he started out very well in the late 80s, early 90s and then lost his direction a little with the acquisition by the Hour G...
Hi Sham
... it is true when you say that with THG before, and Bulgari after the brand has lost but, Daniel Roth of this did not blame because he had already left the company. Today, under the pseudonym of JDN, he creates a Tourbillon all-handicraft, with finishes...
For me
it would be RW Smith and I am happy to say I had left a deposit last year for a Series 2 which will arrive in 2020. And yes I did manage to have a look at the JDN tourbillon. Very nice and I can see Daniel's input in that watch. May I ask what size the wa...
Damn !! A RW Smith !! Congratulations, you did fine !
Watchmaker extraordinary, its classic style and craftsmanship are at the highest levels in the industry. Healthy envy for you. Of course, 4 years of waiting are so many !!! I, this summer, should receive my Voutilainen Vingt-8, after 18 months of waiting,...
Oh wow!
I love the Vingt 8 but when I met Kari in Basel he told me the waiting list was only a year so I assume yours is a bespoke piece with some special engravings. Congratulations! the VIngt 8 is one of the best 3 handed watches in the market today. I am quite...
The Tourbillon 2 minutes JDN...
....has a diameter of 39mm, a size that I think is perfect, my favorite diameter is 38/39, but being a tourbillon, it is acceptable 1/2 mm more, to see the cell better
I agree totally
I am partial to smaller watches and there are too many lovely watches that are too large unfortunately. I look forward to seeing a JDN tourbillon one day (perhaps yours! ). Does it keep good time if I may ask? It may sound like a silly question but many y...
Dear Sham
...I can not tell you how to keep time, because I have never seen the live watch, and I do not know anyone who has it, here in the forum but someone has it, maybe you will know, I would love to read the opinion of some possessor . What I know, though, is ...
Lovely watch Claudio!
Thank you for the beautifully taken photos of your double faced tourbillon. I can see you are a real fan of Daniel Roth! In 1995, I purchased a single faced tourbillon (I like the double faced but it was to thick in my opinion). I remember all my Daniel R...
Thanks a lot, Sham
.... I hope for you, with the Series 2, change habits 😁 otherwise, if you want to change this time again: call me !! 😁
I pray
that when I put the finished Series 2 on my wrist that I will be a happy man but if I am not, you will be one of the first people I will contact!