Dr No
[Moderator Omega - Wristscan]
37671
Hi, Ralf - I have a zero tolerance policy with regards to fraudulent watches . . .
. . . and routinely delete posts on the G O forum whenever fakes are posted. Any watch produced with an intent to deceive is fraudulent, and has no place here. "Fake" watches squarely fall within that category.
"Frankenwatches" are watches cobbled together from parts sourced from a variety of sources, and when the intent behind their production is fraudulent, as is almost always the case, they are also the subject of intense scrutiny. Unfortunately, both fakes and frankens are usually posted by the victims of the perpetrators of the fraud, and they only learn of their loss after posting on the forum.
"Replicas", like the Ocean 7 Ploprof, and "hommages" like RWX, are rarely seen here, but they aren't banned per se as their production is legitimate, however diluted in horological terms. There is no pretense involved in their production, so while they might not be to everyone's taste, they are acceptable. The natural audience for these watches resides on other forums, thankfully ;-).
The determinative issue is intent, Ralf. A project watch like Guille's that is openly posted with complete disclosure as to means and methods of production is simply not fraudulent, and can be shared on the forum. It may not be to anyone's taste, but the proper response is to offer commentary in polite and measured tones . . . regrettably, this was not the case with regards to the thread in question, and that is why I felt compelled to issue my response, even though I am not a member of the Panerai community. Cordially, Art
Dear forum moderators, owners, management,
I have a humble request that happens to be extremely important to me. What is the official stance of this forum towards postings about fake watches, frankenwatches, replicas or hommage watches? Is it allowed or even endorsed to discuss these items here, d...
A very hot topic, Ralf
I would have a very hard attitude against Fake, or Frankenwatches. To me, it would be a NO POST here. As for Hommage or Replicas, things are a bit more difficult, as the line between the Hommage / Replica and the FrankenFake watches is very thin, indeed. ...
The head post title does not invite me to reply, BUT I’ve too
The head post title does not invite me to reply, BUT I’ve too > In respect of intellectual properties, Replica or Homage are rightful and correct! To me you are totally wrong when saying ‘ Therefore, if we are strict about this, if we are extremists, we s...
It was voluntarily provocative, POY
Of course you're right in a legal point of view about Replicas made by the owner of a brand. And as a owner of Pre V pieces, and more than an owner, a Lover of these pieces, I perfectly understand their historical interest and their sentimental value. Now...
Ah bon, U had me worried ;-)
I know you know what is a fake and what is a frankenwatch, so I will not define this for you. I truly believe that Asi’s post below perfectly draws the line between what’s acceptable and what is not: panerai.watchprosite.com And I woul...
I know it when I see it
is the easiest rule applied. Just like in Justice Potter Stewart's ruling... Cheers, Asi
Ralf, here is my stance as GM of this site
Postings of fakes, such as those you can buy in Chinatown on Canal St. in NYC, is definitely prohibited. Then the main concern of yours pertains to hommage / frankenwatches / replica pieces, whichever name you want to refer to these pieces as. I am not go...
I am disappointed, but respect your opinion
I think that one day you will understand my point. Project watches are OK if they are like this: That is like your friend from AP, creating something that cannot pass for anything else than it is - a project. My problem is giving a stage to project watche...
Asi, I totally understand your point as well as Ralf's
but I just do not think hommage pieces such as Guille's really negatively affect the prices of vintage pieces. Ralf has I believe 2 books out on Vintage Panerai so those 2 books right there already increase the awareness of vintage pieces, hopefully causi...
And one more point I would like that add
The fact that Ralf is writing these books is also partially to blame for people wanting to create hommage pieces. There is nothing as a one way street in today's day an age. Ralf is increasing awareness of vintage pieces, and as a consequence, there will ...
I still maintain
You fail to understand my point. I don't care about the value of vintage Panerai. I don't sell them and I didn't write any book. I, am just obsessed with the history and the heritage of Panerai and I feel that a stage should not be granted to those who ma...
Agreed, Asi. More than Value ( money ), it is a matter of principles.
Would we be pleased to see " Hommage " or replicas or Frankenfake waches on the Rolex, PP, VC, Blancpain, Breguet or JLC forum, for example? Would we be pleased to see the only value which is of some interest here, the culture of the Beauty, going down wi...
Asi, my friend
You are just pursuing purity and there is nothing wrong with that. Some of us have 'worked' years and I can understand how deranged one would feel when confronted with short-cut plans. My friend…...
I totally understand your point Asi
I am just pointing out one part of why I don't think it's good to ban these posts. The point I'm sure you think I'm not seeing is that allowing posts such as Guille's "facilitates" or "assists" those with malicious intent into creating fake vintages which...
I can live with it
a post once in two years. I hope it stays that way because I know another forum where every other post is one. I like the atmosphere here which is both professional and courteous. I like the fact that we can have a little fun too, without stepping into th...
To stir the pot....No, a serious question to all.
Re: The definition of hommage, frankenwatch, etc Concerning the 3646 dial that sparked this question: What is to be done with this orphaned 3646 dial? Does one track down it's original case, movement, hands? An improbable task impossible to verify. Does o...
errm, You say 'orphaned 3646 dial?'
Between 1991-1993, at the change of Panerai in Firenze premises, a total of approx 600 dials (then called rejects, used or discarded) along with other materials were purchased by two people. In 1998, Panerai (Vendome) was offered a chance to buy over thos...
Well...yes.
Not being in a watch, and unlikely to ever be returned it's original watch...What would you call it? And to the point, what would you do with it?
To the other point
I had a few, most ended as GIFT to people who owned original pieces! As a replacement/ and the 2 I keep I enclosed in metal display cases.
That's my point.
Hi Poy, In some ways, that's my point. If you have a Rolex Sub with a service dial in it, it'll generally be less regarded than the original. Now there's thousands and thousands of Subs about, so why would anyone replace a dial in the incomparibly rarer 3...
Not a service dial replacement!
Anything happens to watches, when parts or dials get damaged often they can only be replced by serviced dial or parts or dial made differently that the original. In the case of a 3646 'California' or 'Radiomir Panerai', those dials will be impossible to r...
I'd put it to you.
That the likelihood of any dial damage occuring to a 3646 these days would approach zero. (That said, it would be good to have a spare) Personally, as typed above, given that the dial is close to the soul of these watches (the part Panerai contributed 100...
I must be a very unlucky guy myself.
1. Rolex Bexley damaged a gilt dial of my 5513 whilst in service, they had no replacement dials to match, luckily I had one! 2. A good watchmaker after de-assembling my watch, whilst in the operation of cleaning the dial, his eyeglasses dropped on it, the...
A clarification
on your point "It is annoying but there is nothing or so little we can do other than contesting those what-and-how-to-do posts." That there is no Vintage Panerai center goes without saying, it is not as though one can just buy a dial from Panerai we know ...
They are other reasons
Guille, You are a Panerai enthusiast since long time ago, so it is no news to you that there isn’t an official Panerai Vintage center, however I am sure that you know the 2 or 3 people that have had a lots of Vintage parts including a substantial am...
Asi, Your 2 examples are to me a perfect explanation!
Like you I draw the line between the 2 self explanatory examples you used. In going further, the problem I see when tolerating the publication of bill-paid-parts-project is that eventually it leads many others to unauthorized sources that produces with no...
copy that!
There is a big difference... Again, my question to myself is: is there another watch brand forum, where people build their own watches together and are allowed to show them? I feel the attemp of "making it as close as possible to the original" is not a go...
Hi, Ralf - I have a zero tolerance policy with regards to fraudulent watches . . .
. . . and routinely delete posts on the G O forum whenever fakes are posted. Any watch produced with an intent to deceive is fraudulent, and has no place here. "Fake" watches squarely fall within that category. "Frankenwatches" are watches cobbled togethe...
Maybe Panerai is based on replica culture?
Dear forumners, Somewhere in this thread, someone asked if we would be as tolerant to see discussions about replica, remakes, hommage watches on Rolex, Breguet etc forums. Let's be clear: "Only fake people wear fake watches!" Whatever you call them, anyth...
Wow MTF, you just opened my eyes
You are right, we vintage Panerai collectors have nothing to talk about. Anyway, nothing you could obviously understand . But we are only talking about so-called navies that allegedly used the vintage tools. Pot calling the kettle black . I am crawling ba...
Don't get me wrong....
Asi, I LOVE the Mediterranean. It's a great place to paddle around on vacation and I have many fond memories of Montpellier, Monaco, Ayia Galini (Crete), Pefkos (Rhodes) and even Cittavecchia (Italy) (less we say about that place the better I think ...
A very good question and here's the deal
I, like so few have been lucky enough to come in to posession of rare dails and parts for watches like Panerai, Rolex and Patek. It's been my business for 15 years and I look for places outside the mainstream markets to find them. But, not everyone has th...