A. Lange & Söhne

You tell me, after looking at these pictures....

Sam

Were you referring to the Datograph Perpetual or the Langematic Perpetual (the one photographed above)?

My issue is that I enjoy (relative) slimness. The other issues I will write a post later.
Best, Kari

Till a certain level of price, yes. 

I never thought of it that way.....

I would pick Lange over Patek, especially in the entry to mid-end category where finishing is exceptional at this level. However, as what Nico has said, when you get to the top end, I also think Patek is the undisputable king.

What do you think?

cheers

fernando

In fact, I love both brands, as can be seen from the fact that I have exactly the number of PPs as Langes. Lange, however, is moving more and more towards exclusive pieces and boutique editions, which is both good news and bad news....

However, ALS is substantially more modern looking coupled with still remaining refined. The manual wind movements look like supernatural beings created them and not humans. Just look at the Double Split, Dato Perp, Dato Perp Tourbillon, etc. I think ALS are bargains for what they are.

.... Hands down it's Lange & Sohne.  Period.

No message body

... The Monats Werk for a very long time. A personal grail piece and I know one day she will be mine. Oh yes, she will be mine.
- Scott

Lange has a much more modern approach to watchmaking than Patek. Where as Patek makes watches that are quite close to watches from 100 years ago, Lange has a lot of new innovative designs that represents this century. In my opinion Lange is the new king of the hill.

But in other words, Patek has more to offer in terms of tradition and history

I agree with you. For me Lange is the new high end brand, and PP is resting on its tradition.

but if we stick to look,aesthetic ,solidity,general feel,Lange wins absolutely.

What is the measure for this comparison? if it is value and after market value you can say they are, with Rolex, comparable.

In terms of exclusivity not quite. Patek will have more pieces in the main collection that are "reserved" than Lange will have (if one at all at the moment).

If you look at  watchmaking only then you have the feeling that Lange is far in front of Patek, very far ahead.

Lange has cleverly invested in the development of strong mainsprings in order to realize new complications and really new attractive watch models.

In comparison Patek does a little bit silicon, just not to look too outdated and, and is focusing more to traditional watchmaking and improving it in a traditional way (see the new chrono 5170).

(I am not referring to the more complicated chrono 5370 as an example for Patek's invention as the first idea for the isolator came from Lange.)

Slowly, very slowly Patek might also try to get "younger" with the edition of the pilots watch maybe?

Lange might have the same strategy of getting younger with the Luminous, that might become serial production one day?

The look and design is certainly a matter of taste where Patek is the ueber-Lord of elegance as Patek sticks to one mayor rule in watchmaking and that is to be slim.  

Lange is the uber-Lord of period-romantic design and they are very, very good at it.

In essence: Lange is comparable but not better than Patek at this moment in time.

Thank you for the great pictures and congratulations to your Lange 1 in honey gold: it must look fab!

Best

Moritz

The Patek 5004 which came about around 1996 already came equipped with an isolateur mechanism for the rattrapante (in the form of the "octopus arm wheel"), the first DS only came around in 2004 and begun development in 2001 from its serial no L001.1. Meanwhile further back still, before 1990 I believe Piguet already made a rattrapante with isolateur and vertical clutch chronograph in the Cal 1185..
Regards,
skyeriding

... Lange first.

Patek's octopus was, apparently, difficult to assemble, adjust and thick.

Lange's mechanism is by far more advanced than the octopus and with better properties, opposite to the octopus' properties simply speaking.

Hence Patek also did a "Lange style" isolator.

Whether Piguet's 1185 movement was equipped with an isolator I am not too sure.

This 1185 was used by Blanc Pain in the L-Evolution R chrono with an added isolator by Blanc Pain (at least that is my understanding).

Unfortunately there is little graphical explanation to this isolator but from the little information available it sound also like the Lange way.

The isolator mechanism of Lange was / is such difficult that I can not go into details without reading again, but I am very positive that this was a great leap forward, a true patent.

Also (added after posting already): Lange's isolator was born out of a true need!

The problem was to ensure a stable amplitude OVER 30 minutes and therefore any existing isolator was not sufficient enough.

Patek is using the isolator for the extra luxury of offering it in a one minute split second measurement.

Maybe also due to marketing aspects and due to production aspects (easier to adjust and use). 

Best

Moritz 

This message has been edited by COUNT DE MONET on 2016-03-02 04:33:11

This message has been edited by skyeriding on 2016-03-02 04:52:42

Fundamentally, the isolator mechanism work the same way for most rattrapantes - an extra gear with a pin is stacked onto the rattrapante wheel; the pin pushes the rattrapante lever out of the way to avoid drag/friction around the heartcam when in use. This message has been edited by skyeriding on 2016-03-02 05:25:00 This message has been edited by skyeriding on 2016-03-02 05:26:23

I will respond to it soon as I have to review the Lange fully fist and then read your post.

Best

Moritz

This message has been edited by COUNT DE MONET on 2016-03-02 05:34:24

I read your post again today and it all sounds familiar to me again. I assume Lange also positioned some details differently, like the heart cam lever on top of the rattrapante wheel and the pin, that moves it out, also being placed differently on the disengagement wheel?
Thank you for the picture again.
You mentioned an important point, that I was not saying clearly as I do not have all properties of this mechanism always in my mind: two isolators.
One for the rattrapante minute hand and one for the rattrapante second hand as well.
In my opinion the DS is a double chronograph in one watch as you can use the chrono functions independently from each other.
I am sure you heard that the DS can measure a reference time (best time) of an event.
This best time can be recorded with the DS and kept (!) as a record on the dial while you can use the remaining two hands again to start measuring a new time, of the same event, again.
If the new time is let us say shorter, you press twice the pusher at ten an the rattrapante hands record this time.
If you want to record the time that is longer than your reference than you use the pusher at ten twice again.
In both cases you can go back with the chrono hands to measure, completely independently from the rattrapante hands, a new time.
What is fascinating is that in the above mentioned cases (a shorter or a longer recording) the rattrapante hands can jump backwards and forward the same way!
Best
Moritz

Is upside down just to show the spring lever. It is similar in arrangement to most other rattrapantes; the disengagement/isolator wheel on top, underneath is the rattrapante wheel, and finally the heartcam underneath it. Visible here:



Underneath all that stack is the usual brass chronograph wheel. This is typical of any rattrapante due to virtue of design; it can't be done backwards physically. The centremost shaft holds the rattrapante hand and wheel, then a coaxial outer shaft holds the chronograph seconds and two heartcams (one for rattrapante, the other for chronograph reset)

https://i.imgur.com/ErtsXI5.png https://i.imgur.com/sfhywmM.png

The DS works as well as you described - able to store time mainly because it can record up to 30 minutes! Meanwhile, any other rattrapante could so the same but only for a minute long at most.

This enjoyable discussion just reminded me about a certain other novel rattrapante - none other than the AP Laptimer, which is another animal! But I digress..

Regards,
skyeriding

Most people here in Watchprosite state that "only the watch counts, not the value".
I'm too poor for that kind of attitude. Last year I spent well, really well, over half a million local on watches. At the same time I know based on discussions with watch shops of vintage & rare watches that I could sell all of my Patek I have bought during the last 10 years with a price exceeding what I paid. And my only vintage watch I bought is 3700 Nautilus; all others I bought new and at list price.
For sure I buy only watches I love and wear - I do not know something called "investment watch". But as an example I got an offer for a watch I bought last September to sell it with the original purchase price plus 60%. I did not sell.
So I would quote one clever statement one of the forum members said me over a PM: "Taking into account the resale value of Patek, it represents absolutely the best value in the class of high end watches".
Lange has some nice references but the problem is that in most of the cases too big part of the value is vaporising when putting the watch to the wrist.
Best, Kari

However, may I ask if the Patek you bought last September was new and at listed price? I do not know many Pateks that can be bought new and sold off at a "profit" so shortly after. Even perpetual chronos, which in my opinion, is Patek's absolute forte, are listing at roughly 20-30% below the listed price for preowned pieces in my country for models still currently in production.
Cheers,
Masy

and I paid the list price like always.

95% of modern Pateks bought in the last 5 years at MSRP would have the buyer taking a 20 30 40% hit when sold secondary market. Some other special pieces - like the anniversary pieces and the 5131 - bought at retail can be sold for more. I am sure Kari is a smart buyer, he (like me) thinks about what resale is likely to be, so full price paid on an anniversary piece is a safer bet than a standard production annual calendar or perpetual or chrono or calatrava. For the other 99% of buyers who do not have access to anniversary pieces or 5131s, Masy, you are absolutely right that the buyer will take a big hit, as with basically every other brand

I bought pieces which I know would loose a lot from their value: 5153G is the first one coming into my mind. At the same time watches like 5131G, 5575G, 5070P, 5550P probably do not loose anything - rather visa versa. And finally watches like 5711, 5980, 5167 keep their value pretty well.

Within the 5 year period that you mention MRSP went also up nearly 40% and secondary market prices went also up, not 40% certainly, but  still up.

MRSP are not "adequate" for standard collection pieces, everyone knows this.

I regret not to have bought more entry level Pateks as they are an investment, compared to zero interest at the bank.

Entry level Pateks are not spectacular in return but the longer you hold them the more you will (!) get in return later. (Always compared to interest from the bank)

Have to disagree here.

Best

Moritz